ganac on 25/11/2010 at 03:10
Spoliers. Yep. Maybe.
While updating the Shalebridge Cradle staff and paitents, I found this:
(
http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Robbing_the_Cradle:_In-game_text#HHdancerfile)
And that got me thinking, how can there be an "old" Mechanist device? One could argue that it is being used desparagingly, and that it is not actually an old device. Then the timeline issue popped up.
Several things are unclear. The time between T2 and TDS, Elliots admission date, and the approximate date the Cradle burned. The woman is from a wealthy family, so such a device would have been easily obained, if not given by Karras for the family's favor. So I assume that the viktrola was in her possession shortly before the events of T2. She is admitted prior to the events of TDS, meaning she has been there since the events, or during the events of T2 (note that the doctor calls it "old" only in his second entry). I can hazard a guess that the time between T2 and TDS is around 2 - 5 years max. That presents another problem, becuase the Cradle holds itself as being long abandoned. So it had to burn between T2 and TDS, yet achieve its infamy in that span.
Now I know that abandoned buildings, even after a few short years, look nothing short of crap. Surely the dark age/industrial steampunk world that this lies in would be even worse, not to mention the place sounds horrible to begin with. Couple that with a world of magic, haunts (note the suffering, pain, torture, murder etc etc etc etc in the Cradle; The Hag got in with ease), almost commonplace physical hauntings (at least for Garrett), and a populace not exposed to scientific explainations, it is plausible to see that the building can be so decrepit and feared in such a short timespan.
So, is there any explaination, other than mine? Do we have a continuity error?
I'm sorry if it is not making too much sense; the message board logged me out right as I posted it, and I have forgotten some critical points. I'm going to be updating this thing quite often.
Iceblade on 25/11/2010 at 03:34
IIRC, I think it was mentioned by one of the developers that this was an oops, continuity error.
Whether this is officially a continuity error or not, it is one as it pretty close to contradicts what we know about recordings being something very new and novel given the conversation between Truart and Karras in eavesdropping.
Btw, I thought that TDS took place several months after TMA. I seem to remember something in the canon indicating this.
theBlackman on 25/11/2010 at 03:38
"OLD" is a relative term. If you have a cell phone, "old" could mean one ore two years.
Don't get hung up on terms that are common usage. A used item is "old", not necessarily in years.
And it does not say a " Mechanist device " it says viktrola. True, the assumption, which is all you are making, is that the Mechs invented it. Karras had a couple that appeared in TMA, but the item could have been around prior to that appearance in the game.
You are letting your subjective views color your rational thinking regarding the item and the "timeline" in its appearance.
As for the cradel itself, the same rationality is in play. An abandoned building need not be 50 years of age to be considered "old". THE HAG apparently had interaction with the orphanage some 20 or 30 years prior to that of Garrett.
But, given the existance of the Keepers, the slow evolution of the Mechanists over the Hammerites, who also used machinery, THE HAG had ample time to have to do with the cradle.
By the same token, the viktrola could also have been in existance in TDP. You can't pin a timeline for items such as this to a specific unless you find some material stating "This was built by... It could have been an artifact of the PRECURSORS rediscovered and built by anyone before, or during the time frame of TDP or earlier.
There are items that have a specific "time" of appearance, the Rust Gas rediscovery, the "Servants" and the cultivator, again a "rediscovery" of a lost science. Mundane items such as the viktrola could have been around well before the timeline(s) of the missions.
ganac on 25/11/2010 at 03:59
Quote Posted by theBlackman
"OLD" is a relative term. If you have a cell phone, "old" could mean one ore two years.
Don't get hung up on terms that are common usage. A used item is "old", not necessarily in years.
And it does not say a " Mechanist device " it says viktrola. True, the assumption, which is all you are making, is that the Mechs invented it. Karras had a couple that appeared in TMA, but the item could have been around prior to that appearance in the game.
You are letting your subjective views color your rational thinking regarding the item and the "timeline" in its appearance.
As for the cradel itself, the same rationality is in play. An abandoned building need not be 50 years of age to be considered "old". THE HAG apparently had interaction with the orphanage some 20 or 30 years prior to that of Garrett.
But, given the existance of the Keepers, the slow evolution of the Mechanists over the Hammerites, who also used machinery, THE HAG had ample time to have to do with the cradle.
By the same token, the viktrola could also have been in existance in TDP. You can't pin a timeline for items such as this to a specific unless you find some material stating "This was built by... It could have been an artifact of the PRECURSORS rediscovered and built by anyone before, or during the time frame of TDP or earlier.
There are items that have a specific "time" of appearance, the Rust Gas rediscovery, the "Servants" and the cultivator, again a "rediscovery" of a lost science. Mundane items such as the viktrola could have been around well before the timeline(s) of the missions.
*How can the age of the viktrola be comparative, when there is naught to compare it to?
*Did you even read what I linked? "Have decided to allow the monthly dance recitals subject performs for the children in the Lobotomy Theater. She uses that old Mechanist viktrola of hers."
*The Hag's interaction with Lauryl is irrelevent. She is only mentioned becuase that event would fuel spiritual activity.
Most of your argument is null due to irrelevencies and incorrect statements.
Quote Posted by Iceblade
IIRC, I think it was mentioned by one of the developers that this was an oops, continuity error.
Whether this is officially a continuity error or not, it is one as it pretty close to contradicts what we know about recordings being something very new and novel given the conversation between Truart and Karras in eavesdropping.
Btw, I thought that TDS took place several months after TMA. I seem to remember something in the canon indicating this.
That is the first I have heard of any of this. Can you link to some evidence, please? Thanks.
Iceblade on 25/11/2010 at 04:15
Quote:
Karras: kar0610S: Now, behold, my wax cylinder machine. I've used it to capture the Sheriff's very words, even as they moved through the air, today. Hearken, friends!
(Recording of Truart's words:) ...And I can supply them. Vagabonds, street scum, prostitutes...those who will not be missed by anyone of consequence....
(Karras speaking:) With his voice thus preserved, Truart dare not betray me or he'll have the scandal he fears so much.
Quote:
Karras: karvic01: (Woman speaking:) Message number one of six: (Karras taps the recorder before speaking:) Is this functioning? Oh. My good guests, welcome to Angelwatch! I have gathered you here, citizens of exceptional breeding, for a fine and festive evening. The Builder's work never ceases. Thus I am not able to attend in person, but I am present in heart and voice, as you can plainly hear. Friend Vilnia will be your host in my absence. Now our evening together begins.
It would appear that the recording of voices is something new at this time. It is possible that tones (in other words music) could be created onto a disc/place, but not something that could be recorded from the natural world. So I can see where its possible that Victrola's existed before the Karras was even an acolyte of the Order.
Of course, there were no Mechanists in existence at the time of the Lauryl and Drept's childhood.
@Ganac: I can't be sure I remembered that correctly. If it was said, it was done in passing in one of the threads discussing this very matter. I know this issue has been debated at length and probably multiple times.
Iceblade on 25/11/2010 at 04:24
@jtr7: That's the thread/post I was thinking of.
Okay, so that confirms somethings: Victrola's existed before the Mechanists. I guess that would explain why there is already a music studio already that can be found in the "Shipping and Receiving."
ganac on 25/11/2010 at 04:34
Ok, nice work with that thread! However, that still does not explain why it exists... I would not put it past Karras to re-write the past. Hell, thats what he DOES.
Quote Posted by Iceblade
Okay, so that confirms somethings: Victrola's existed before the Mechanists. I guess that would explain why there is already a music studio already that can be found in the "Shipping and Receiving."
Not quite. Blackheart is a famous musician, so he could have gotten a wax cylinder machine before we are introduced to it in Eavesdropping. But like I said, Karras is big on taffing with people.
Just for reference, what is null's real name?
jtr7 on 25/11/2010 at 04:49
Quote Posted by Iceblade
@jtr7: That's the thread/post I was thinking of.
Okay, so that confirms somethings: Victrola's existed before the Mechanists. I guess that would explain why there is already a music studio already that can be found in the "Shipping and Receiving."
Actually, it's just a continuity error, and the game text actually calls it an old "mechanist" device, plus it's the same model. Whoops. Now, if there was just a wax cylinder device that didn't resemble the Mechanist viktrola, it would be fine. As for the Wax cylinder in T.M. Blackheart's studio, the fiction has him receiving at least some Mechanist tech, so there's no telling if his wax cylinder device is Mechanist-made or not.
ganac on 25/11/2010 at 04:54
People believe complete lies all the time, so it can be possible that the origin of the viktrola/wax cylinder had been erased by Karras. As to why it was a never a popular invention before, you can branchoff off there, like it was "before it's time" or an obtuse invention, etc etc.
It's not like the series has been deliberately contradictory. *cough*mappingthecity*cough*
