Dante on 15/1/2009 at 23:04

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So, I'm in the early stages of writing a novel -- outlining it, that is. It's about a thief in a large medieval city (I'm not yet sure about the degree to which I'm going to detail the outside world). Standard fair, right? Actually, there are hardly any novels on this subject outside Scott Lynch's stuff, which is more about con men than burglars ... which leads into the problem.

I shamelessly admit that the idea was sparked by the Thief series; had I not played the games I wouldn't have been inspired to write this sort of fiction. The problem is that these games are practically the only experience I have with burglary in fantasy fiction, and while I welcome Thief's influence I'm having a hard time making my work original (for what it's worth) and not merely the brainchild of Looking Glass Studios. And while I may be biased because I love world-building, I think the difference maker is setting.

I want it to be medieval. That much I know. I like the general atmosphere. And while I'm not worried about the historical subsets of the Middle Ages -- I've considered a Byzantine feel as well as something closer to the Renaissance -- I think I'm doing a crummy job in my outline of getting down the nitty-gritty: creating a deep, dark, enigmatic, vibrant (I can go on and on and on with the adjectives if you want) metropolis that doesn't just scream Thief! For example, utilizing a strong, politically-active religion is out because that's exactly what the Hammers are. Dealing with the oft-used trope of a medieval city built on the ruins of an ancient, mysterious one is tricky because of Karath-din. Handling deities as major players in the plot has already been done. And yet all those concepts, particularly the second, fascinate me.

If you've made it this far through my ramshackle musings, I applaud you. I didn't intend it to be a self-therapy session, but it turned out that way. I'm not looking for answers to the troubles I posed above; this is a much broader query to the Thief community. The simplicity -- and perhaps the vanity -- of my actual question probably doesn't match the drudgery of this post. But without further ado ...

In your opinion, what elements go into the creation of the sort of vivid urban setting I mention? Was there something other than the medieval/steampunk atmosphere that immersed you in the City?

kamyk on 16/1/2009 at 04:33

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:laff:

All the dirty little secrets of the secondary or tertiary people living in it. The more dirt the better. Even if it is just passing glimpses of no real importance to the plot, it makes the city itself feel more dynamic.

Jarvis on 16/1/2009 at 06:26

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I dabble in writing as well, and I often struggle with the same problem. What I strive to do is to get the details of the setting to fit a broad context of the story itself. Allow me to provide some examples I enjoy:

The Truman Show: It has a very strong and obvious "point" that is acted out in the final scene in a not so subtle way. The story was about a variety of subjects. The enduring human spirit. The need for God vs. the desire to be free. Security vs. freedom. The details of the movie were expanded only as far as was needed to communicate those messages through story. For example, how the hell did they control the weather to such a precise and violent degree in that dome? It's not explained, nor does it need to be. It told the story quite well, and the power of the moment was greater than the need to explain it.

Be wary... this does not mean you can get away with out explaining something. Especially since a novel is much different medium than a movie. The point is that the story had a purpose above merely creating a setting, and the setting catered to that higher purpose.

Tolkien set out to do something more akin to what you describe, world building. He'd go on and on for pages and pages about fake ancient history and this hero and that civilization and so on. Yet despite all of his carrying on, the story stayed firmly encased in the struggles and actions of a few character... and especially the friendship between Frodo Baggins and Sam. Granted, Tolkien got away with it because it had never been done before. Not to mention, he was a scholar and a linguist. LOTR wouldn't make it in the modern writing world.

I hope this has been helpful. In short: figure out what the overall idea of the story is going to be, and I think you'll find that the rest of the setting will expand deliciously to encompass your ideas.

Herr_Garrett on 16/1/2009 at 09:05

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You can do anything, so long as it remains coherent. On that, I'd greatly advise you to buy History of Middle-earth: Sauron Defeated and read the 'The Notion Club Papers' part.
Actually, Tolkien would get away with it nowadays, too. Mythopoeic writings galore, for gods' sakes! Just a few ones: The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Forgotten Realms, His Dark Materials, A Song of Ice and Fire... We could carry on endlessly.
But the point is, as theBlackman said: if you're going to make a living city, you have to make it credible. For instance, if you'd set out to create a Mediaeval, non-steampunk world, then the only device you could use for "miracles", or creating a dark atmosphere, is mysticism. Not magic, but strictly mysticism. The good point in mysticism is that, what hey, 'tis mystic. And now coming to the point, that what was the additional thing I loved in Thief: the mysteries. I do not mean the 'secrets', but the stuff like: where do the Keepers/Hammers/Pagans/Mages, &c. come from? Karath-Din? And all the things usually discussed, argueed, and waged war upon.
Magic is tricky because, whilst it does verge on mysticism, it's not the same. Magic, in our world, in our minds, has its rules, just like physics. Pratchett got that really right: he devised 'thaumatology' as the Magical Studies, and if he gives some "reason" why this happened like that, which is coherent according to the rules of the thaumatology, it's nice and proper.
Mysticism is essentially obscure. With that artifice, you can make people to willingly suspend that old disbelief about pretty much everything. And there's nothing more interesting/frightening than hints, just hints. It makes you immerse yourself in the world, and also to be aware of its obvious dangers. In short, hints lend credibility.
So, I'd advise you to confer to the Faerie Queene, Tolkien's works (especially the History of Middle-earth series - in them you can see how he wrought and forged his world), and Lovecraft's works.
That's about the setting... About getting characters look real: it's not just the problem to create each of them a credible background, but to create for every single godsdamn one of them a distinct, unique personality, with clothing, speech, hobbies, pleasures and vices, etc. (I really hate this in A Song of Ice and Fire; there no-one has a separate personality, and everybody speakes and talks the same) For example: it is quite normal for a nobleman to know everything about the political games in the city, but not to know essentially anything about the life of the underworld; and vice versa with a beggar, or a thief. (This is what I couldn't understand in Gardens of the Moon: why would the political élite of Darujhistan know anything about the life of a single thief? And vice versa). But, of course, the leader, the ruler, the monarch must know about everything that happens, otherwise how would he/she stay on the top? So they must use noblemen and thieves and beggars alike...
I think I don't have to give lectures about historical crediblity :D Altough be careful of consistency again: if your story would be set in the 15th century, for example, and you'd want, say, the Templars to still be around, then you have to give a good reason why they are still there.

If you're interested, I could help, after the exam period is finished (so after February, pretty much). I study English Literature, among others.

Dante on 16/1/2009 at 15:16

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Wow, these responses are enormously insightful, and I'm not just buttering you up. Which is sort of makes you all a big pain in the ass because I don't know where to begin. :D :wot:

Mysteries/answers seem to be what a lot of us agree on. But solving mysteries on a group scale never really occurred to me. Regardless of the actual intentions of alchemists and Templars, I still think it's still a wonderful idea. But I don't really know how I overlooked it, because this sort of stuff fills intrigue fiction.

As for anachronisms, this city would be placed in a secondary world, so I can have a group parallel to the Templars under a different name, and it wouldn't matter whether or not they're still around at this point in history because I can devise my own history for them.

Herr_Garrett, about characterization, do you recommend dialect in dialogue, e.g. "Ah went t' town"? I've seen differing opinions on this and I've normally strayed away from it because I don't think I can handle it consistently. Would patterns of speech serve the same purpose?

Anywhoz, I've read Malazan and ASOIAF, but although Tolkien is my favorite author I haven't actually read his History series. Interesting that you should recommend that. I'll look into it. :thumb:

I saw The Truman Show when I was probably too young to catch all the themes, so I might as well look into that again too. (I have nothing against using scholarly excuses for lounging around two hours in front of the TV.)

As for social hierarchy, that's something that I haven't thought of much. I always figured it would just be a mirror of the rise of the bourgeoisie. :confused:

Herr, I think it makes sense for commoners and miscreants to know a little of political games, which brings up yet another thing I hadn't considered: How wrong is the public's perception of politics?

Jtr7, you get cut because I have to run to school. :( More later.