Herr_Garrett on 17/1/2009 at 17:38
About characters' speech: I meant that everybody should have their own idiolect. Gentlemen should intone clear, rounded sentences, seasoned with most select vocabulary, and should be able to clearly express, nay, intone their sentiments in every and all situation, like this. Thieves usually talk in argo. I recall that there is a quite droll little dialogue in DS betwixt two corsairs, which does shed some light on this very issue. :cheeky: Beggars -at least in Hungary- are not the most eloquent of people, and usually mumble just on the edge of hearing, and even then usually swear. That sort of thing.
Furthermore, please, if you intend to archaise, do not invent pseudo-archaic forms, as many authors out there do. That sort of stuff freaks me out. And even though you may use a secondary world, you can only talk about it in our primary terms. So if you're going to use Mediaeval terms, titles, words, etc., check them first. (The lack of everything I mentioned above really pissed me off in A Song of Ice and Fire. I don't know whether Martin seriously has a vocabulary consisting of a 1000 words, or did they simplify it because it's published in the US? I mean, everybody, great and small, peasants and kings, all talk the same way, use the same words, syntax, phrases, everything. Also, Martin apparently learns two new words (or phrases) whilst writing each book, and then uses that word throughout the book. And everybody has "sweet sister/brother" and "lord father/mother". Even serfs, it appears. And everybody "must needs" "ever so slightly". The guy has never heard about tense, time, and person agreement... Anyway. Forgive me, but such things give me the creeps. :angel: I'm an anal retentive, it seems. :p)
Even if your tale takes place in a secondary world, you still must use everything consistently. Damned tough religious fanatics controlling half (or even more) of the city don't just pop into existence. Of course, by way of only hinting to their roots, not wholly explaining them, you can add to the credibility, and the mystery.
About this whole mysticism-stuff you should also check Keats's thoughts about negative capability. I wrote a paper about something like that, what, two months ago (guess what, in the context of Keats's and Tolkien's works :p :D ), I could send it to you, if you're interested.
How wrong is the public's perception of politics? Profoundly, I should say. In a capitalist democracy (is there any other sort? Socialist isn't democracy...), people imagine that politics is there to expand their personal rights and advance their personal welfare. They couldn't be more wrong. Politics is done by politicans, who, without exception are greedy, mean, and selfish. Even if by some miracle one that is an exception does appear, they don't work for anybody's personal stuff, but for the state's. And that is a great difference.
In autocratic states people are lied to, so of course they have a wrong picture. If they are allowed to have a picture at all.
Er... yes, that exhausts the selection of forms of government nowadays.
TheCapedPillager on 17/1/2009 at 18:28
To your original question about what element helps one feel immersed in a fantasy world, I think the inclusion of hints as mentioned above is key, specifically if those hints to the background of the universe you're creating are realistic in the context of your story and to a lesser extent familiar in our own world. These hints were cleverly distributed in Thief, conversations about a war with a neighbouring city state, readables detailing injustices perpetrated by those in positions of authority etc.
Something I always appreciated was the turning point with Constantine, where the world you thought you knew was suddenly turned on its head. The game simply would not have been as interesting if this 'reveal' had occurred near the beginning, they (LGS) needed you to get to a point where you had formulated an understanding of the game world before they showed you just how wrong you were.
I would be particularly keen on a more politically driven story. Even today in our world we believe we know how the world works and what politics means, but as mentioned in a previous post, this is an illusion (partly crafted by politicians, and partly by ourselves) and always has been.
In terms of how a story about a thief in a medieval city could be related to politics, there I think you may find the thread that will provide a plot. For example, a thief is hired as an assassin to kill a political figure and through this proximity to the upper classes (which a lowly thief would almost never normally come into contact with) he/she may unmask a political conspiracy far more grand in scope than initially suspected.
Beleg Cúthalion on 17/1/2009 at 20:08
One more thing which I noticed during a German fan fiction contest and even in Perdido Street Station which I'm trying to read in free minutes at the moment: I don't like being spoofed obviously. I don't like reading about an unknown character walking somewhere while the text tries to be secretive but shouts I WON'T TELL YOU WHO HE IS between the lines (or worse: YOU KNOW IT IS GARRETT BUT I'LL TELL YOU LATER!).
I found a pretty counter-example in "The String of Pearls", an edition of the old 19th cent. Sweeney Todd penny dreadfuls, where at one point the author described a character walking through the streets and it was very obvious that it was Sweeney Todd (much more excentric than Johnny Depp by the way) but it took not long until the text told me that ("Our reader will have guessed by now"... or something) instead of being foolishly secretive all along.
theBlackman on 17/1/2009 at 20:27
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
The Templars were merely trying to answer the question how to get enough men and material into the crusader states to compensate their losses. No matter what was your intention, just in general: I think it's wrong to deny the people back then pragmatism and reason. The times were not that dark and secret and only full of religious slaves. And I'm not quite sure right now if I would except this narrowed view of history even for a "historical" fantasy novel/movie.
As usual you are putting your own spin on a generic referrence. Nothing was said about a lack of "pragmatism", or "reason". The Templars and Kabbalists and the Masonic groups did have a restricted membership. The applicants were carefully screened for persons of a like-mind and the rites were secret.
Much of the secrecy had to do with self-protection. The times were such that accusations of heresy and witch-craft (in all religious groups) was prevalent.
The Templars, as an example, were destroyed by the combined efforts of the King of France, and the Catholic pope. The tool used was satanic worship and heresy.
The reason Friday the 13th is considered unlucky today, is that every Templar known to exist, and every holding of the Templars was siezed on October, Friday the 13th, 1307.
The reasons were eco-political, but the charge was based in religion and the secrecy of the organization was a fact. The general public considered them "mystics", and persons of arcane powers.
Quote Posted by Dante
As for social hierarchy, that's something that I haven't thought of much. I always figured it would just be a mirror of the rise of the bourgeoisie.
Soicial hierachy was the norm from the lowest beggar to the ruler of the city state or country. Thieves, beggars, scavengers, carpenters and other craftsmen all were subject to Guild restrictions with well defined lines of hierachy. Members of such were regulated by strict rules of the particular Guild. Yes, even the beggars, thieves and assassins, in some cases.
Beleg Cúthalion on 17/1/2009 at 20:58
Quote Posted by theBlackman
As usual you are putting your own spin on a generic referrence. Nothing was said about a lack of "pragmatism", or "reason". The Templars and Kabbalists and the Masonic groups did have a restricted membership. The applicants were carefully screened for persons of a like-mind and the rites were secret.
No, I did not put a spin on it, I questioned the correctness of your very "generic refer
rence". I'd also question the fact that Kabbalists had a "membership" but I only had a few hours about Kabbalah during the religious studies and in fact they're not so interesting for me, so I'll focus on the Templars. They had a restricted membership like any other monastic order simply because they had a reputation and of course certain requirements for e.g. combat. Left aside the nobles who played an important role although they were the fewest in number.
Quote:
Much of the secrecy had to do with self-protection. The times were such that accusations of heresy and witch-craft (in all religious groups) was prevalent.
The Templars
were accused of heresy in the end (and (
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Knights-Templar-Helen-Nicholson/dp/0750938390/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1232225365&sr=1-20) Helen Nicholson has pointed out that this was common at the time for a lot of trails) but until 1309 the order's reputation was good enough that they didn't need any secrecy to defend against accusations. Not showing their rule or everyday life to outsiders is quite normal, on the other hand.
Quote:
Soicial hierachy was the norm from the lowest beggar to the ruler of the city state or country. Thieves, beggars, scavengers, carpenters and other craftsmen all were subject to Guild restrictions with well defined lines of hierachy. Members of such were regulated by strict rules of the particular Guild. Yes, even the beggars, thieves and assassins, in some cases.
Beggars...agreed. I believe I've read about that. Thieves maybe, but assassins? Do you know how many people you have to kill in order to justify the existence of an assassins guild? Not even the real assassins were a bunch of killers, although apparently even after eight hundred years since Marco Polo this hasn't become generally known outside the Isma'iliyya. :p
Dante on 18/1/2009 at 02:21
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
One more thing which I noticed during a German fan fiction contest and even in Perdido Street Station which I'm trying to read in free minutes at the moment: I don't like being spoofed obviously. I don't like reading about an unknown character walking somewhere while the text tries to be secretive but shouts I WON'T TELL YOU WHO HE IS between the lines (or worse: YOU KNOW IT IS GARRETT BUT I'LL TELL YOU LATER!).
(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS2tZTF8zIM) Pronoun trouble, you mean? If I write about a lonely thief creeping along the halls of a cold, dark manse, it's gonna be in first person for immediacy and intensity, so that won't be a problem. I'm interested in seeing for myself what it's like to experience the world—the unknown—through his eyes.
I can barely keep up with everything here. You all think way too deeply on these issues for my pea-sized brain. So forgive my slapped-together response. Seems pretty damn pathetic based on the amount of time everyone's putting into this thread. :erm:
TheBlackman: Beggar guilds? What? Or did I misread?
Speaking of which, this may not be the most mature novel I've ever read but such lowly guilds exist in
The Way of Shadows by Brent Weeks. Fun read, regardless of literary merit.
As for an assassins' guild, I was actually imagining a more tight-knit mercenary contingent that might realistically prosper. If anyone's read R.A. Salvatore's novels, think Jarlaxle. (Wow, I'm leaning heavily on shallow authors tonight. Suppose I'm shallow myself.) I don't really think of the Nizari of Alamut as an assassins' guild because they had a religious/political agenda and were motivated to kill for their own reasons rather than as swords for hire.
I do get a kick out of those guild-happy cities in the Renaissance. There was a guild for just about anything. :laff: Imagine what Terry Pratchett could do with that. (Or has he?)
Quote:
Damned tough religious fanatics controlling half (or even more) of the city don't just pop into existence. Of course, by way of only hinting to their roots, not wholly explaining them, you can add to the credibility, and the mystery.
Quote:
Something I always appreciated was the turning point with Constantine, where the world you thought you knew was suddenly turned on its head. The game simply would not have been as interesting if this 'reveal' had occurred near the beginning, they (LGS) needed you to get to a point where you had formulated an understanding of the game world before they showed you just how wrong you were.
:idea: Yes, these aspects are exactly what I'm aiming for when I mention mystery! I have no problem fleshing out history; in fact as far as the story itself goes it's the plot that's most challenging. It's harder to create a story around a selfish outlaw than around, say, a vigilante. (Look at the 9000+ Batman flicks versus a smattering of heist movies. Well, shit, I guess
The Dark Knight had heist elements.) That's just me though, and devising a tenuous-bordering-on-catastrophic political background would help produce ideas, I imagine. So :thumb: to politics.
Quote:
I've seen some very interesting shows on History lately. One was modern science proving the things that happened in the bible actually could have happens without a miracle.
Ever seen
The Prestige? One of my favorites, though I haven't read the book.
Herr_Garrett: Negative capability? Not sure I understand it judging by, um, Wikipedia, but I'd love to read your essay! There's certainly more to this whole world-building deal than I suspected. At least, I didn't think this much when I outlined some medieval or pseudo-Arabian Nights land. Curse the deep philosophy of this mere video game! :sweat:
kamyk on 18/1/2009 at 05:45
Salvatore was not shallow. He was very deep in questions of personal identity. Don't be ashamed if he inspires you. :thumb:
As for the thinking way too deeply, I agree. I could have expounded on my response, but I prefer to speak plainly and to the point.
Tidbits about non essential characters, showing they are not just cardboard cut outs. I suppose replace "dirty little secrets" with "little glimpses of lives" as it appears I didn't get my point across properly.
or to keep up with other parts of this thread:
To create a deep, vibrant city, insert various passing reference to the daily activities of sundry persons of non-importance as pertains to the primary plot of your fiction, as this will differentiate such individuals from the common scenery of your metropolis, provide external interest, and demonstrate that it does indeed exist beyond the constraints of your proposed cross section of a small portion of said individuals. :p
There is quite a bit of good advice here, just a bit collegiate perhaps in some cases. (No offense intended to anyone:)).
Regarding world building, I disagree that it won't work in modern writing, and point to David and Leigh Eddings as proof. Just don't get carried away with it. I was writing a novel series, and I got bogged down about the time when I started to study plate tectonics to explain my mountain ranges. :rolleyes:
Dante on 18/1/2009 at 14:58
This may be the best
Thief article I've ever read, and the more I read about the Hammers/City Guard/Pagans (which the author briefly dwelled on) the more I'm fascinated with the political intricacies of the City. Bring on T4 already!
Quote Posted by kamyk
Salvatore was not shallow. He was very deep in questions of personal identity. Don't be ashamed if he inspires you. :thumb:
...
To create a deep, vibrant city, insert various passing reference to the daily activities of sundry persons of non-importance as pertains to the primary plot of your fiction, as this will differentiate such individuals from the common scenery of your metropolis, provide external interest, and demonstrate that it does indeed exist beyond the constraints of your proposed cross section of a small portion of said individuals. :p
...
Regarding world building, I disagree that it won't work in modern writing, and point to David and Leigh Eddings as proof. Just don't get carried away with it. I was writing a novel series, and I got bogged down about the time when I started to study plate tectonics to explain my mountain ranges. :rolleyes:
SFFWorld, an SF/fantasy forum I frequent, tends to look down on Salvatore. Part of it, I think, is that they've been spoiled by people like R. Scott Bakker and George R.R. Martin and suddenly feel like losers for liking his action-heavy plots. I like him, but I do think his later books aren't as good. Then again, those forums are extremely partisan. I didn't like GRRM and wound up waging a one-man war with half the populace. It got ugly fast.
As for passing references and minor tidbits, it'll be a challenge to describe them without letting my usual cynicism slip into my prose. (Oh, sometimes I reread my writing and think it's horribly miserable because my natural voice when writing is so freaking cantankerous.)
And plate tectonics? :eek:
BA? Great, now I really am in up to my neck.
[prints document]Quote:
"It was a deep and vibrant night..."
/facepalm
Herr_Garrett on 21/1/2009 at 07:04
Well, is it of any use?:D
