Thirith on 11/8/2008 at 14:00
From what I've heard about Braid, I very much like that game's rewind mechanism. However, it seems to be an integral part of the game's storytelling, so it's somewhat of a different situation.
Shakey-Lo on 11/8/2008 at 14:09
Interesting topic, one I've been thinking about having just started playing Battlefield: Bad Company. In that you respawn as you would in a multiplayer game - the map and situation remain identical, you just respawn. The problem with that is that it's a heavily character-based story; it's the exact same mechanic as the Vita Chambers in BioShock but absolutely no explanation is given.
Incidentally, the Karoshi game mentioned in the article is awesome :D
Manwe on 11/8/2008 at 14:44
Quote Posted by Gambit
Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen was really inovative.
That would be legacy of kain : soul reaver not blood omen. And yeah it was pretty amazing, very similar to what prey did only in this one if you failed in the spiritual world you actually died for real.
mothra on 11/8/2008 at 15:05
Quote Posted by Thirith
Before anything else: do you really need this passive-aggressive, self-pitying "I'm old skool, but they only make games for wimps and pussies these days..." spiel? Because you make valid points, but the undercurrent of "I'm better than the mainstream, for which I'm sadly neglected" is somewhat annoying, frankly.
that's just how I write things and above is just how you like to see things.
I don't think it has anything to do with me or how I come across. Show me where I wrote "old school" and "I'm better than..."
back on topic.
it's my opinion that I feel that most new games have the trend, or sometimes it's even shown as the "new" mantra or a display of progress, to exclude death from the game and introduce some kind of hand-holding or health-regen or whatever. they say "when you have to reload it breaks the immersion, health-regen keeps you into the action all the time".
I say "no, death is part of the game, the break in gameplay is needed to reflect on that and get some new feelings instead of a constant wash of "action" without much consequences apart from your vision going red or you get "reborn" in a vita chamber.
both philosophies can co-exist and have their benefits.
what I don't like if one is being sacrificed for the other.
this sound like apple vs MS to me.... :)
and I hate being told by others what is "good" or "not" or how I should feel about a certain "feature", it's not the devs job to tell me what I SHOULD like, they should make the game and then I'm gonna tell 'em if I like it or not. this leads to many studios having the preconception that gamers want that no-death gameplay now and that they should implement it because of marketshare, popularity, whatever. And that makes me very sceptic about those you-never-die/health-regen games before I buy them. and that's why I recoginze them even more than before.that's all.
I enjoyed COD2 for what it was but found COD1 a much more rewarding shooter.
some games want you to die so you can see the nice deathanimations or put in some backstory for you.
speaking about games that may do it better:
POP - the sand mechanic was practically a small death-savior but you could still die in the game (wait, no, that's not how the story ended)
the new POP will use your new sidekick as the one that saves you from impending doom, she will perform a "rescue" once you fall down.
that way you have no-death but you still get reminded "WAIT, you WOULD have died there, you moron".
Maybe that works out better in retaining a little punishment (that I seem to need to enjoy games).
it's all about the give and take.
Thirith on 11/8/2008 at 15:18
I'm sorry, mothra, I over-reacted. Please accept my apologies.
Back on topic: I'm mainly interested in finding out whether death is the only punishment that makes for good/fun/interesting/immersive gameplay. There are a number of games where it's essentially impossible (or at least very difficult) to die, yet they're not unchallenging. I agree, without any kind of setback you can easily get to a point where you don't even try any more and you basically play the game just to get to the end, not because it poses a fun challenge. At the same time, reloading and replaying a section tends to be frustrating; I'm wondering what sort of setbacks there are that basically motivate the player rather than frustrate him, or that balance the two. There must be other options than the Vita Chambers on the one hand and quicksave/quickload or replaying the last ten minutes on the other.
Out of interest, did you think that the healing suites in the System Shock games cheapened the gameplay or made it less challenging?
mothra on 11/8/2008 at 15:58
he, no problem, I'm somewhat branded as a bleedig-heart liberal and arrogant prick on this forum, so that reaction is somehow normal.
you know I like deus ex and ss and thief so I always liked the little micro-management of things, the care that goes into your inventory and the chance for "creativeness" in the amount/type of things you carry. that always included some kind of health-management.
the health kit gives you imo a "longer" timespan in which you can plan your attacks or actions, if you manage to get across a level with 1 left you could feel satisfaction.
the introduction of health-regen tipped the favor over to immediate gameplay/decisions on the fly, makes it more arcade for me. so therefore I feel somewhat limited if I have health-regen in a game that provides more than just basic shooter functions. it would have been the wrong decision for e.g. STALKER.
the new COD did change to health-regen but it did not hamper the gameplay too much since they are arcade-y and more action-oriented. my problems with later COD-titles come from the spawn-wave system for enemies which gets old after part4.
SystemShocks health chambers were no instant heal, you had to "do" things in the gameworld to get the ability to use them and it did take away other resources so they retained the punishment somewhat. I must say that I personaly did not use them that much or better said: I used them when I did not really HAVE TO, just to be on the safe side or just because I like to use all the features a game provides me.
there was another mix up for health-regen in the game MenOfValor I think, a boring vietnam shooter that featured bleeding and healing.
so if you did not heal yourself in a certain amount of time you died.
take too much gunfire at once - you die.
far cry2 will have a similar feature where you remove shrapnel from yourself or put out your burning trousers mixed with health-regen. we'll see how it works out.
and most importantly for all those features, health-kit or not is difficulty scaling. how do you scale your enemies or "hero" with "easy"/"normal"/"hard"
that can make and break a game as well. I don't care if games are newbie-friendly, give me 2 hours of tutorial if you want but give me more options to tune the game to my needs as well.
Digital Nightfall on 11/8/2008 at 16:23
Ultima Underworld returns from the pages of history to show all the new games how it's done.
Silver sapling. Basically you plant your own spawn point. If it's in your inventory when you die, you're dead. If it's planted, you return to the game world where you left it. It's not only good for strategy, but it's the original town-portal! Want to go back to the settlement? Plant the tree there! Then, later, jump off a cliff and kill yourself!
catbarf on 11/8/2008 at 18:53
Steel Battalion made death meaningful. If you die, you have a brief moment to mash the eject button.
If you eject, you redo the mission.
If you fail to eject- it erases your saved game.
Harsh? Yes. But it does put a real fear of failure into you.
Stitch on 11/8/2008 at 20:49
IT'S NOT JUST A GAME ANYMORE
Fuck you all I want to enjoy my games in opulent comfort. Anything less than save anywhere is unforgivable in 2008.
(roguelikes excepted)
Renzatic on 12/8/2008 at 04:54
Quote Posted by Gambit
Legacy of Kain: Blood Omen was really inovative.
If you died you would just enter the spiritual world and would need souls to come back to the material world. If you died in the spiritual world you would just come back to your hud.
There were no save games. Instead you had to activate teleporting gates throught the game so that once you start in your hud you could teleport further.
That was Soul Reaver, not Blood Omen. And yes, it did have an innovative death system. I absolutely loved the twisting environment effect you got when switching between the living and spirit worlds.
