Renzatic on 10/9/2010 at 20:20
Yup. I'm having more woes, mostly to due with my little legal issue that started last year. The whole story is a long sordid tale that involves a goodly chunk of change being converted from me, alot of people lying to alot of people, smoke screens, blackmail, misdirections (which you kind people at TTLG were unknowing participants to, something I still kinda feel bad about), and other bullshit antics. To cut this very long story short, I got a conviction. His plea bargain to the magistrate was to pay me $300-500 a week for 7 months. If he failed to make even a single payment, I get a warrant for his arrest, and the case goes before a superior court judge. All things considered, it's no surprise I had to sign the warrant last week.
Now the theft took place in two areas: converted checks and credit card fraud. In Febuary, I finally managed to get my invoice in and was able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that card fraud took place. Everything went perfectly from there on. I give Chase a ring to report the issue, the accommodate me, placate me with smiles and promises, and they voluntarily remove the charges from the account. Considering all I wanted was for them to have my back in court, I was more than pleased.
Only problem is Chase did fall a bit short on their promised help. They were going to send out packages, have representatives with me in court, maybe even wash my car. None of which came to pass. Considering all the evidence I already had, it didn't really matter. I had the issue on the books, and they took the fraudulent charges off. I assumed that was enough, and for the most part it was. I got my conviction just last month.
Then earlier this week I get a call from Chase Fraud. To paraphrase:
"Sir, we've investigated your claim, and can't find any evidence of any fraud having taken place"
"Why didn't you just call me? I have tons of recordings, spreadsheets, court documents, and whatever else you need ready to fax and email if you so need"
"Well...sir. That's beside the point. No actual fraud took place"
"According to the court it did. Hell, he admitted to it in front of a judge. I have a conviction"
"But that's not fraud"
"Alright. Define fraud for me"
"He had to physically take the card, or willingly use the number for it to be considered fraud"
"He used my card on file at Merchant X, claimed I gave him permission, then signed my name on the UPS order..."
"Right...that's not fraud. So sorry. We're placing the charges back on your card and charging you 7 months of accrued interest at the 22%"
"That's too convenient a definition of fraud for me. I'm not liable for any of those charges"
"Yes you are. This was a business transaction, and you're thus responsible for the entire amount"
"I'll talk to my lawyer"
After 7 months of doing absolutely nothing, they decide to call me out of the blue and recharge me for the full amount they willingly took off without any insistence by me. I gave them the FULL account from day one, so it makes no sense that they'd decide this now.
I've already called my lawyer, and have a scheduled meeting with him...in two weeks. That's far too long for me to stew over this, and I'd like to get an educated opinion on the matter beforehand. You know, for some peace of mind.
So TTLG, what are my rights here? Am I well and truly screwed here?
Rug Burn Junky on 10/9/2010 at 21:20
*USUAL DISCLAIMER THAT THIS IS NOT ACTUAL LEGAL ADVICE*
Just an off the cuff analysis, but it seems that you have a corporate bureaucracy where administrators without true legal experience are confusing internal standards of "Credit Card Fraud" and interpreting them in a hyperliteral fashion (when even a plain reading of the facts shows that it even meets their internal standards. Assuming your paraphrasing is correct, he "willingly used the number" in a fraudulent manner).
These standards are internal controls written by their in-house legal department in such a way as to be most favorable to the company, while avoiding the bare minimum of potential legal and regulatory costs. It gives the fraud department guidelines to act, by rote, and leaves most of the actual discretion out of their hands.
However their internal standards mean jack shit as to whether or not it's actual fraud - the fact that you already have a judgement on file means you have them dead to right here. Of course, that probably means that you'll have to take them to court to force them to listen. Though I imagine that once it gets elevated to their legal department and someone-who-knows-better has the facts staring them in the face, they'll cave instantly. In the long run, I'm sure you'll be fine, but you probably have more sticky bureaucracy to work through.
Brian The Dog on 10/9/2010 at 22:27
Quote Posted by Renzatic
"Alright. Define fraud for me"
"He had to physically take the card, or willingly use the number for it to be considered fraud"
"He used my card on file at Merchant X, claimed I gave him permission, then signed my name on the UPS order..."
"Right...that's not fraud.
Sorry, but in my country that definitely is credit card fraud - he used your card for a purchase and signed the bill pretending to be you. Of course, the merchant was also in the wrong for letting someone sign as you when they knew he wasn't really you - claiming you gave the guy permission just doesn't hold.
As RBJ says,, the fact that the judge agreed that this was fraud in the case means you should be in the clear. Your lawyer should be able to make a good case, definitely.
Renzatic on 10/9/2010 at 22:33
To clarify on "willingly used the number", their definition is basically that he had my CC number written on a sheet of paper, and call it out to an operator before it's considered fraud. Since Merchant X had my number on file, Guilty Party Y could call in the order without directly using the card.
My argument was that Guilty Party Y did in fact use my number willingly, despite not having the number committed to memory. In fact, I could also place blame with Merchant X for not going through the effort of verifying the identity of the cardholder during the order. But oh no. According to Chase, since we had a business agreement, it's assumed he had the right to use the card. The fact he was an employee who had no right to the card period, was, to quote that woman and her oft abused phrase, "beside the point".
Of course there were other arguments she threw my way. Such as how long it took me to report the fraud. See, I've never been involved with anything like this before, and I had no idea how exactly to approach it. I knew there were discrepancies on my card, but I didn't want to report it until I knew exactly what went where. This wouldn't have been a problem if I had my invoices, but it took three requests to Merchant X and the eventual intervention of the credit card company before I ever received them.
Oh, and Guilty Party Y was calling Merchant X to have the invoices diverted to his address. Had even gone so far to tell Merchant X that it was his credit card. But oh no. This is obviously anything but fraud.
And Chase wasn't terribly thrilled about the final verdict. It'd take another 5 paragraphs to explain how and why it happened, but the final judgement included the amount that was removed from the card. Chase thought it unfair that I would "profit from the situation", and considered that a mark against me.
The whole situation is incredibly stupid, the theft, which caused a ripple effect and almost ran my little startup business in the ground for damages I have yet to charge him with...and now this. It has been a huge pain in my ass for almost a full year now, and I want to be done with it.
RBJ, I appreciate the response. I had a fairly good idea that this was happening simply because Chase wanted to recoup their losses, and they knew they couldn't get it any other way, but it's good to here from someone who has more than an inkling of an idea of what's going on. Since I've already dealt with so much, I'm sure a few more snags won't be much of a problem.
Rug Burn Junky on 11/9/2010 at 00:03
Rethinking this for a sec based on the additional info. (I had thought that the Guilty Party Y WAS merchant X, and received payments from Chase. Pardon me if I was a bit light on the details in my head.)
There is a nontrivial chance that Chase can actually charge you. The loss is obviously caused by Guilty Party Y, it's just a question of who is in best standing to recover from him - You, Chase or the Merchant.
Chase is sticking their head in the sand if they think that it's not "fraud" because it doesn't meet their literal definition, because it was.
There're a couple of problems for you.
The first is the agency relationship and whether he may have had a right to use the card. That's complicated fact-based analysis. In short, the court decision is presumptive evidence that he didn't but it's possible that both the merchant and Chase could have relied on his representations.
Whether it's fraud that they're liable for really depends on the fine print in the contract itself, but there's a good argument to be made that Chase should clear the charges from your account, recoup the money from the merchant (Since the breakdown in security was obviously on the merchant's end), and let the merchant deal with recovery from Y. Or, depending on their merchant agreement, Chase goes directly after Y. In either case it's not your problem.
Chase's first strategy is to just recoup it from you, since that's the only path that could save them litigation costs if you roll over. I honestly can't blame them for not wanting to be left holding the bag on this one, but from a cost/benefit analysis it makes sense. Once you fight back, that changes the cost/benefit (a lawsuit by you automatically inflicts costs which could be greater than the amount even if they won) and I still say that they're likely to cave.
The problem, of course, is that if you were rewarded these amounts in the judgement, Chase's argument that it would be a double windfall is kinda right - there's no more money to get from Y. Not only does it render moot the question of who is in best position to recover from him, you actually HAVE recovered from him. If they tried to sue him, he could point to the judgment and say it's too late.
So they have a point, but their position is ultimately wrong too - since if you paid in full PLUS interest (unless the interest is included in the judgement? It would have to be express, because statutory judgement interest isn't nearly that high) they would be the ones profiting from the fraud off of your back, so that likely wouldn't fly.
I'm sorry if my first answer was a bit too optimistic, but you're still in good shape. Obviously your lawyer is in better position than I am to tell you the details, and it may be that you have to come to a settlement where you pay something to Chase, but they're on crack if they're trying to charge you back interest.
Renzatic on 11/9/2010 at 01:22
Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky
Chase's argument that it would be a double windfall is kinda right - there's no more money to get from Y. Not only does it render moot the question of who is in best position to recover from him, you actually HAVE recovered from him. If they tried to sue him, he could point to the judgment and say it's too late.
There are a few things that make this situation more complicated than it should be. Everything in my case is sound, but because I filed the charges on the conversion first, went to court once over it, then filed for credit card fraud, it's makes things a bit weird.
The long story version. I knew Y stole a set amount of money. He admits to as much on the recordings I made in December. The only problem I then had was proving it. Easy enough to do on the checks, but without the invoices, I could only lay out hard evidence so far. I call up X one last time and request the invoices. He gets belligerent, so I resort to calling Chase saying that I need these invoices from this merchant, he's refusing my request, and there's a potential of fraud. They begin the process.
Afterwards, I inform my lawyer of the situation. I don't have the invoices yet, but I have him admitting to the full amount, and I have the checks. So we hammer out the total that includes everything he admits to, and take it to court on conversion. While there, his lawyer requests a 90 day dismissal, which I agree to in the hopes he'll wise up and pay the damages.
Of course he doesn't, but we'll get to that.
7 days into my 90 day dismissal, I finally get my invoices. Every single one of them has Y's name along the top, and the latter orders, his address. Even better, I have the price of every single piece of equipment, so I can track down every penny. Things were weird. While Y was finishing up with me, he was beginning his process of ripping off another business. The theft from them combine with some of my jobs that I thought I paid for, but didn't. Long story short there, I underestimated the damages by $1100. Unfortunately, that doesn't matter because we stuck with the original estimate made during the first court hearing. Since I didn't include the interest in that first estimate, I've already lost a bit of money.
I tell my lawyer. He says to call the credit card after the 90 days are up, so we can combine this into a single case. I do, and thus begins the process with Chase mentioned above.
Now the interesting thing here is I brought up the issue with charging Y for the entire theft, despite Chase having removed the extra fraudulent charges. His response? "So? Don't worry about it. They can't do anything. Don't even call them". Ha! Apparently they can. Or at least try. There wasn't anything I could do anyway. Chase never had an investigative team brought onboard like they claimed. Never even received one of their little blue packages. If I wanted Y to be charged fully, I had to include it in my case.
Days pass. We're in court yet again. Despite having 90 days to come up with at least some cash, Y only brings $500 in. The lawyers get together draw up a plea bargain. He admits guilt, but no official charges are brought forth provided he adheres to the terms of the agreement. The lawyers go before the judge, and we go our separate ways.
Ultimately, this was really nothing more than a simple way to get Y to hang himself without having to plea our case. He admits full guilt. There is no contention anymore, no his word against mine and the 3 witnesses I brought along. If he pays, well good. If not, he gets shipped off to jail, probably bails out, and has to go in front of a superior court judge in 8-12 months. Right now I have $1500 in an escrow account, and a warrant out for his arrest.
I have documentation that backs up every world I've said. As you can see, I'm not exactly profiting from the situation. I just had no other choice if I wanted Y to be convicted on all charges. Plus Chase could've helped me out considerably more than they did. But...eh.
Sigh.
bob_doe_nz on 11/9/2010 at 04:00
Tell your story at the (
http://www.consumerist.com/) Consumerist...???
Does your bank utilise any online blogging sites? e.g twitter, FBook etc.
I'm sure the last thing they want is bad publicity.
Mr.Duck on 11/9/2010 at 04:20
*Continues to postpone the acquisition of a Credit Card*
Renzatic on 11/9/2010 at 06:04
Quote Posted by bob_doe_nz
I'm sure the last thing they want is bad publicity.
(
http://www.mybanktracker.com/bank-reviews/view/Chase) 206 reviews. 1 star rating. My bitch fit would just be a small contribution to a very large stack of shit.
I think I'll save my bile for the fraud department, and do the blog smear campaign after defaulting and telling them to go fuck themselves. Sure, I'll take a huge credit hit, but it'll be so damn worth it. Every single dollar owed on the card at the moment is directly related to the theft. It's all unauthorized charges, or debt that should've been paid back with the converted checks.
This'll would be a last ditch of all last ditch efforts, but damn it sounds like such a nice option right now.
Quote Posted by Duckeh
*Continues to postpone the acquisition of a Credit Card*
Wise man. Just get a little $1000 limit starter card and use it to buy games online. That's the only reason I can think of beyond the business I'd need a credit card for. Everything else? Cash. Instantaneous payment on bills, no interest, and you always know exactly where it's going.
Fafhrd on 11/9/2010 at 06:43
Fuck Chase. I'd had Washington Mutual for years and loved them as a bank. But ever since Chase acquired them and promised that nothing would change with my bank service, there are tons of little annoying things that have started to crop up (I have to BUY my checks now? Two dollar ATM surcharge for using a non-Chase ATM, on top of the 1.50 THAT ATM charged me? The fuck?). Fuck Chase. I'd change banks in a heartbeat if I could find one that had the same services as WaMu (the big ones being free checking without requiring direct deposit, free checks, and no ATM surcharges), and it weren't going to be such a fucking hassle to move my savings.
