Damned Muddy Shoals... - by nbohr1more
nbohr1more on 1/8/2011 at 22:17
So...
I have this old addiction\compulsion to evaluate the plausibility of various theories that account for the roots of legends and myths. My favorite, as you can imagine, is the legend of Atlantis. I used to spend quite a bit of time scouring Turkey in Google Maps for evidence of Peter James' Tantalis hypothesis but that theory has left me cold and I just don't find it as compelling as I used to.
The story of Atlantis has always bothered me but I couldn't put my finger on what the problem was until now.
When Plato discusses Solon's discussion at Sais, both Solon and the Egyptians agree that the "Muddy Shoals" which are a remnant of the destruction of Atlantis "Currently Exist". That is to say, neither Greece nor Egypt can navigate through the Straights of Gibraltar to the Atlantic Ocean because of all the muck, mud, and debris in the water left-over from the destruction of Atlantis.
The Straights of Gibraltar have NEVER been obstructed in this way, none of the Atlantic island locations can obstruct anything, none of the land-locked locations can obstruct anything, Santorini cannot obstruct anything, Cuba cannot obstruct anything...
If we grant the Egyptians with the credit to understand the difference between Seas and Gulfs and Rivers, there are only two viable locations outward from Egypt:
1) The Black Sea has a shoal near the entrance to the sea of Azov. (Black Sea deluge theory) The event seems too far back in history though...
2) The Red Sea has a choke-off point near the Gulf of Aden which has serious volcanism. The Red Sea also has a fault-line and has had periodic drops and rises in Sea Level.
So obviously I have a bias towards the Red Sea.
I will add the following:
Egyptians were OBSESSED with a place called "The Land of Punt" (aka The land of the Gods) which was primarily located in Ethiopia (right next to the southern tip of the Red Sea). This was compelling enough for one theorist to name Meroe (a City-state surrounded by several prominent African rivers in the Punt region) as Atlantis.
In Ethiopia, a strange cluster of ancient ruins is identified as the remnant of the Harla civilization. In the local lore they were claimed to be giants. The Harla graves have the unusual aspect of including "Black Sand" in bowls with the deceased. (Eg: Could that be volcanic sand from a destroyed island???)
So I've been trying to pin this down better but I cannot find a good tool that shows what Sea Level changes do to the coast and underwater formations. I also cannot find any good sources to look at either geological changes to the Red Sea or historical legends from the area. All I keep finding is Exodus \ Moses "proof" or the "Atlantis II" sea floor project (about current plate tectonics etc).
Does anyone have any better tools or sources?
Anyone have a fun and cranky Atlantis theory of their own?
(Please keep ancient crystal alien replies to a minimum :laff: )
Nicker on 2/8/2011 at 00:36
There is this (
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/finding-atlantis-4982/Overview) NatGeo program, which explores the possibility that there was an ancient, ringed port city in what was once a bay but is now a dried out marsh, on the Pacific coast of Spain, just north of the Straights of Gibraltar. Of course just when it seems like they are going to reveal something definitive, the credits roll and it's, maybe next time...
Still it covers some interesting ground entirely without any alien conspiracy references.
nbohr1more on 2/8/2011 at 00:47
Yeah... but when did "The coast of Spain" ever "block access to the Atlantic Ocean" ?
I won't say it's completely off the plate and the number of Tsunami events in the Mediterranean could explain why no remnant of the "muddy shoals" remain in Gibraltar (flushed away)...
but...
Meh... :(
I am not excited about Spain for some reason, (except maybe Northern Spain and the Basques...). ...Also, it's not an "Island" dammit. :laff:
Not to mention that line of thinking could be used to justify any notion of the remnant of Atlantis being absent. (And thus make the theory impossible to disprove.)
Edit:
I'm sure you meant Atlantic coast of Spain ;)
demagogue on 2/8/2011 at 01:40
After reading around a bit I found it pretty credible it was something on the coast of Spain. The thing is I think it was part of a long oral tradition before it got written down, and it's always the nature of oral traditions to expand the story more and more over time, or even copying from one written source to another there are common mistranslations or misunderstandings... So what could have just started off as a fortified town on the coast of Spain overlooking the strait, big compared to everything else around there at the time, that just got inundated with sea water, expands to all these rings and a great civilization blocking off the Gibraltar strait and entirely sinking and whatnot. And I think the story of Santorini could have easily gotten conflated in the details.
Vernon on 2/8/2011 at 01:46
Quote Posted by nbohr1more
(Please keep ancient crystal alien replies to a minimum :laff: )
Good to put this warning. CommChat is packed to the rafters with superstitious folk
nbohr1more on 2/8/2011 at 01:58
Yes, the whole "telephone effect" is certainly a factor.
That is why I always considered Atlantis to be the merging of the Santorini event and the Tantalus event.
I just can't get past the fact that Solon agreed that the Atlantic is "currently inaccessible". In fact, I believe that the tale does nothing to refute that the Pillars of Hercules were blocked even in Plato's time.
Did the Greeks and Egyptians simply believe that Gibraltar was blocked because of remembrance of that event and never embark to "see for themselves"?
I suppose that is plausible given the superstitions of the age. I simply can't imagine that no voyager would've dared to test this.
Of course it would be hilarious if this was the sequence:
1) Spanish coast destroyed
2) Debris fill Gibraltar
3) Folks cannot access Atlantic for AGES (becomes dogma)
4) Santorini erupts
5) Flushes out Gibraltar
6) Folks continue to believe it's blocked via step 3
7) Visits Egypt
8) Sais folk tell wild tales about Punt
9) Mis-interpreted as Spanish coast event
Fafhrd on 2/8/2011 at 02:04
(
http://atlantis.haktanir.org/ch12.html) My favourite take, and one that actually seems pretty credible considering the geology, geography, and structures in the area, puts the city of Atlantis in the Bolivian Altiplano, and the continent of Atlantis was South America.
nbohr1more on 2/8/2011 at 02:23
I love the South America theory.
If it weren't for my "muddy shoals" hang-up I would put it in my top 3. :(
unless...
Was the "Strait of Magellan" ever blocked by mud?
:ebil:
demagogue on 2/8/2011 at 02:29
It's not just the telephone effect by itself. It's the familiar logic of it.
It always seems to turn on a key imagistic particle -- "over", "on", "in" -- that if you misconstrue carries an entire image that just dominates from that point and carries its logic with it too all the other details. In this case, I think the original story is the city merely "stood over the strait" or "covered the strait", as in, was on the coast overlooking it (actually it could have been on the African side too since their image of the world was often flipped N-S). But to foreign ears, "standing over the strait" can easily sound like it's literally covering the strait. Then the Atlantic must be inaccessible or what's the point of the story? And the sea inundation must mean the entire thing sunk or what's the point of the story?
It's the same logic as with Noah's flood in the Akkadian text, "rising 20 feet up the hillsides", being translated into Hebrew as "rising 20 feet over the mountaintops". Then, from that one dominating image -- it can't be a river anymore but a sea, or a barge of farm animals but a ship of all animals, or landing downriver but on a mountain in Turkey, or the story makes no sense.
nbohr1more on 2/8/2011 at 02:39
Alright, I'll keep my muddy shoal pessimism in check WRT Spain.
I just have a hard time swallowing the idea that Solon would agree that Gibraltar "is" blocked and didn't do anything to verify that claim. If the Greeks were trading with Spain at the time then that's even more of a problem... Solon would've said bullshit to the whole thing and stormed outta Sais. :cheeky:
