Dawn of the Metal Age

Meisterdieb on 16/3/2009 at 18:18

Quote Posted by Nameless Voice

Sweet Builder, the people in this thread need to use browsers with inline spellchecking. :nono:

:confused:

Well, whatever magic the Mages used, that could explain them being there.

@ManicMan:
Well, then my post pretty much fought some imaginary battle...:p
What threw me off was how you quoted the part about the Lost City, and then answered with an argument about the Eye.

Keepers, Hammers, Mechanists and Mages aren't normal people, they each have special powers to help them 1) getting somewhere hard to reach 2) in dealing with whatever danger is there.
Still, they would suffer casualties. We now the Keepers did, and I'm just assuming that the Mechanists lost some men fighting the elementals and burricks.

Poesta on 16/3/2009 at 19:09

Quote Posted by Meisterdieb

The entrance we see in TDP was probably the only one that needed sealing by the Keepers since other entrances would have been destroyed by the cataclysm or just plain inaccessible for normal people - like a flooded tunnel. Not until the Mechanists built their sub were they able to move their eqipment down there.

Of course that still ignores the question of how the Mages had gotten down there. Either they used their Earth Mages to make a tunnel or there simply are more entrances than even the Keepers were aware.

Couldn't it be that the entrance was sealed after the mages went down there? Also, the seal is magical. Mages use magic. Just so you know.

I think it wouldn't be very handy to move all kinds of equipment to the hidden entrance and transport it along the waterfalls and such. If they did it this way, it also wouldn't be a secret operation anymore. Markham's Isle was deserted, so they set up their base there so they could move in and out of Karath-din undetected.

Quote Posted by Meisterdieb

I think we hear or read in one of the in-game notes that Garrett's mechanical Eye was a present from the Hammerites. And in Soulforge Karras reveals that it was him that built that eye. So I think it's a safe bet to say that Karras was a member of the Hammerites before (isn't there a in-game text that actually states thus?) At the very least he was working FOR the Hammerites, although I don't see the Hammers as the outsourcing kind.

The authors of Thief2X had the assumption that Cavador was already experimenting with gears and such while he was a hammerite bishop, but I don't know if this is mentioned in Thief 2. It seems logical to me.

Solabusca on 16/3/2009 at 19:40

Quote Posted by Poesta

Couldn't it be that the entrance was sealed after the mages went down there? Also, the seal is magical. Mages use magic. Just so you know.

Mages use elemental magic. Keepers use Glyphs. Very different, given that Keepers are supposedly the only ones using them.

Quote:

I think it wouldn't be very handy to move all kinds of equipment to the hidden entrance and transport it along the waterfalls and such. If they did it this way, it also wouldn't be a secret operation anymore. Markham's Isle was deserted, so they set up their base there so they could move in and out of Karath-din undetected.

Moot point. No-one but the Keepers knew about this entrance - which is why the EXIT is unprotected; it's Garrett's secret back door out of the place.

Quote:

Well, as has already been pointed out, gears as a concept existed in the Thief setting long before Cavador or Karras poked their noses into it. Karras represents the shift from the more moderate (!) stance of the Hammerites (ie, that nature has it's place, in service to the Builder's chosen - hence using wood to make tools, etc) to the Mechanists screed of NATURE BAD. That's paraphrased, by the by.

Meisterdieb, re: the spellcheck comment: NV is correct - there's a definite need for it in this thread, and not from you.

Finally, the comparison of Hammerite v. Mechanist is, indeed, more akin to Catholic v. Protestant. Karras' public face is that of 'Reformer' of the Hammerite Church. Mechanists are a spliter sect, a schism of the Builder's faith, not a completely separate religion.

.j.

ManicMan on 16/3/2009 at 19:55

Quote Posted by Solabusca

Meisterdieb, re: the spellcheck comment: NV is correct - there's a definite need for it in this thread, and not from you.

Sorry ^_^; it's mostly me i think... I don't like to say the reason for my spelling problems cause so many people use it as a reason to be lazy and not work harder. Sorry and i'll keep trying harder ^_^

Poesta on 16/3/2009 at 19:58

Quote Posted by Solabusca

Mages use elemental magic. Keepers use Glyphs. Very different, given that Keepers are supposedly the only ones using them.

You're right. I didn't think about that.

Quote Posted by Solabusca

Moot point. No-one but the Keepers knew about this entrance - which is why the EXIT is unprotected; it's Garrett's secret back door out of the place.

I'm talking about the underwater entrance in the middle of the city. I don't know where the back door leads to. It probably wasn't convenient enough for the mechanists, or else they would have constructed a ramp or something like that to make access and transportation easier.

jtr7 on 16/3/2009 at 20:39

The Lost City, in both games, had Docks we couldn't get to from the inside. Since that's how we see the Mechanists coming and going from there, and nothing else is said about it, we could make anything up, but we don't know.

If Thief Gold is the most accurate story, then the Hand Mages were there. They could've done something to the place or accidentally tipped the Order off during their stay. They could've cleared rubble, especially at the Docks. They were seeking the Talismans and may not have remained simply because Garrett got to them first.

T2X is not canon, but is well-guessed and extrapolated.

Garrett's Mech Eye:
kar1602A: "I know thou art not a believer, Garrett. Yet thou art well aware that half of all thou seest is through Mechanist machinery: Thy metal eye. I gave the eye to thee in the hopes that thou wouldst be an ally, but 'twas not to be. You have eluded me in the past, Garrett, but no one--not even thee--will escape this night."

Nothing is said about Cavador's pre-TMA days, and only TDS ever mentions the word "Bishop", but it's the name of a guard, and it's an implication that bishops exist in some Order--though with only terms like "High Priest" and "MasterForger" ever used for the hierarchy, we can't know what name the Order uses in place of "Bishop", but we know him as only "Brother".

Cavador was an archeologist and anthropologist at heart, and didn't buy into Karras's big plans:

Quote:

M15B07: "Ah, wondrous discovery! For the chance to
learn here, I would excuse Karras far more than
he hath done.....

Mayhap I spoke too soon. Of all the wonders
our Ancestors hath left for our discovery, Karras
is fascinated by only the smallest portion. Yet,
without his aid, 'twould be naught to explore....

Still more rust gas hath arrived. I sent it as
well to the lava, for I cannot convince Karras
how little use we have for it. If only the
Cetus Amicus could carry more digging
supplies instead......"

"Site 2 goes best; it hath yielded up what
Karras wanted, and now we explore its greater
mysteries. How beloved of the Builder these
Ancestors must have been, for surely he did
show them all matter of wonders we can barely
comprehend!........

Time will be short for my side projects, at
least until the next shipment. Even then,
I fear more unreasonable demands,
until there is barely time to sleep,
lest we fail to meet Karras'
schedule ......"

Which is why he betrayed Karras.

Quote:

M14B05: "Walrick,
Indeed, Father Karras's plan proves yet more brilliant than I hath imagined. The Father doth call it 'The Cetus Project,' after the Cetus Amicus. The project itself, however, is in truth the grand meshing of several operations, like two gears joining their cogs. At the KD site, Cavador hath uncovered the ancient power used by our Order to benefit all of humankind. Our vessel must needs transport those discoveries back here to Markham's Isle. Even the restoration of the lighthouse wast directed by Karras himself. When the Cetus Amicus returns from a journey to the KD site, the lighthouse beacon is used to signal Karras in Angelwatch. Everything doth prove so machine-like, so perfect... -- Friend Lorus"

mc41502B: "...you must seek out Brother Cavador, for he alone can aid you. No other here hath his understanding of the 'ancient' ways."

Quote:

M14B05: "Construction Journal

Our work on the underground facility doth proceed as planned. When first we arrived here on Markham's Isle, we found the cove deserted; the lighthouse stood inoperable and the house of its keeper lay in near ruin. Whatever pirates didst make this place their home departed long before we arrived."

"The cutthroats didst maintain a hidden base 'neath the lighthouse, containing several shoddy buildings of poor wood. For the most, we destroyed these mockeries of construction, but those that were sound we left standing, to be used for our own purposes. Indeed, on the instruction of Cavador, our new facilities have been built directly into those structures that we didst take over. 'Tis sad indeed to see such powerful steel tainted by the touch of rotting wood, but need dictates our actions."

"The new drilling machine is in truth miraculous! Its bit doth bore through solid granite, and the Builder's Children canst easily assemble and disassemble the machine wherever need doth compel it. This doth prove most useful when we must needs carve out isolated sections of the caves."

"My eye spied another nugget of silver today. The veins are rich with the Builder's bounty! Methinks I'll keep this little discovery to mine own self...."

Quote:

M14B02: "CAPTAIN'S LOG -- CETUS AMICUS
Entry 1 -- Today was indeed a fine day, for Karras was on hand for the commissioning of this, the finest of vessels -- the Cetus Amicus. In all my years as captain of seagoing craft, I never sailed a ship so sleek or strong. Verily, the Cetus Amicus mocks those wave-bound barges! To glide below the flotsam and jetsam...to stand safely in the womb of this steel shark as she cuts through the briny deep. Never again shall there be a vessel as fine as this."

"Entry 26 -- Damn that Fretus! He has failed miserably in his duties as cargo master, and will be disciplined forthwith. To lose the only key to cargo locker 5! He claims he passed it to Senwith while in Subaquatic Outpost 1, but the key has since disappeared. I fear it may have slipped beneath the flooring into the bilge water. Until one of the men can locate the key, cargo locker 5 remains sealed."

"Entry 30 -- Fish again. If only mutton would keep on our voyages...."

"Entry 31 -- Today we set course once again for the KD site, bringing Cavador back to continue his excavation. He wouldn't go into details, but apparently he's uncovered some new artifact that Karras is very excited about. This may be the last voyage we make in quite some time, as Cavador has been ordered to remain at the site indefinitely."

"Entry 39 -- The crew is prepared for yet another voyage to the KD site -- this time to drop off special cargo for Cavador. He's ready to excavate another zone, and, as per standard Mechanist procedure, needs to cleanse the area with rust gas to prevent the growth of any flora. I must admit, however, that I have grown tired of these mundane cargo runs. I feel the time has come to refit the Cetus Amicus as a ship of war, and venture beyond the confines of established routes. I shall propose this change to my superiors upon my return from the KD site."

Viktoria: "The schematics are too technical to decipher, but the name they reference, Brother Cavador, is the best lead we've had in months."
Garrett: "Then we need him. I'm sure you'd love to ask a high-ranking Mechanist a few questions. I'll go see if I can convince Cavador to come back with me."
Viktoria: "There is much we can learn from him. Lotus, my agent on Markham's Isle, may have information on Cavador. Unfortunately, we've had no word from him for some time."
Garrett: "The he got careless. I won't make the same mistake."
Viktoria: "I have hope that Lotus is still alive. He's a faithful agent...and a trusted friend. If you could find him, we'd be in your debt."

pg11401F: (Chattering) Hush, sneaksie friend. Time runs out. There bes a Mechanist named 'Cavador'. Karras needs him. Relies he on his craftsy works. Karras always asking…needs he ever more, and more, from Cavador. The…'Cetus Project'…'Cetus Amicus'…. Horror of the seas...horror of the seas.... Must...tells The Lady.

Viktoria: "Cavador was instructed to deliver two sorts of artifacts, brass masks and—"
Garrett: "Those slave masks on Karras' Servants?"
Viktoria: "—and some sort of agricultural device called the ‘Cultivator’. Thirty of each."
Garrett: "Each? So they're connected."

kar1602G: "Sifting through the remnants of the Precursors' world, I found the tools The Builder had left for me. Why save these things when all else is gone? The Builder hath spoken to Karras, and imagine my joy when finally I did piece the puzzle together! How long did it wait for one...such as me? One who could bring about the age when The Builder would walk again...on earth?"

THE EYE
It's not a matter of who or what can get near The Eye, but whether The Eye wants to screw with them or not, and whether it wants to play nice or NOT, and if the glyph prophecies are being fulfilled or not, having a pact with the Keepers. Not only is it sealed into the cathedral by Keepers, but the breaking of the Elemental Wards means The One is coming, and The Eye does not break the pact. In the Museum it messes with peoples' minds for fun.

The Keepers, especially Keeper Andrus, risked exposing themselves to put the wards in place. Being Keepers, they could reason with The Eye, influence the Hammers, etc. Garrett was only an honorary Keeper until he completed the Acolyte Ceremony in TDS, making him a full-fledged Keeper, and one of the Brethren.

Quote:

M7KEEP1: "Keeper Lukas,
We have received word of your fears, and we understand and indeed share them. We did not lightly take the decision to involve ourselves in this matter. However, we believe that we were compelled to act. Were the Trickster not opposed, he could bring destruction upon the entire city, and upon us as well. We have endeavored to conceal our efforts as best we can. I can only hope that we have been successful.
Yours in knowledge,
Keeper Andrus"

Quote:

M7KEEP2: "Keeper Andrus,
We are relieved to hear that you have successfully contained the destruction. It was for just such a contingency that the Elemental Wards have been saved these many years, and we support your decision to use them now, as the peril that you have described is grave indeed. We urge you to hide the Talismans with great care, as their discovery could lead to another such catastrophe. We worry also that your actions have exposed the truth of our existence to the world, which we must not allow.
Yours in knowledge,
Keeper Lukas"

The Hammers were compelled by the Keepers to protect a Talisman (or two), without knowing they were helping Keepers.

Quote:

B5: "The ancient corruption was again contained.

To do more would have upset the balance, but we knew to remain ever vigilant lest it resurface.

Neither the Hammers nor the pagans could be trusted not to meddle.
--Keeper annals"

The Dawn of the Metal Age occurs between the games, and is well-underway by TMA, but still has a lot to go. Another interpretation, though not fully supported by the games, is that the Builder's Paradise Karras sought, is the true Metal Age, and TMA was the dawn building up to it. The Keepers called what Karras already did a second age of darkness, the Metal Age. The spider wove his labyrinth and lair.

Karras was a Hammerite who splintered off, taking many followers with him, and the rest were swept along, willingly, but for a few.

Quote:

From M16B41: "He hath truly forsaken his followers, but I remember not o'er long ago when he was a Hammer priest rallying his peers 'round him for improvements in the Order. It seems as though an eternity hath transpired since then. I think now of the days when I was a Hammer, and how we put our faith in our tenets and championed The Builder, and each other, above all."

Quote:

From M06B07: Perhaps thou hast heard of the Mechanists, but thou may be confusing us with our hoary forebears, the Hammers.

kar1602C: "Nay, I shall not pine, Garrett, that thou wert no ally to me. Thou art not known for constancy...nor loyalty. 'Twas from the folly of Constantine that I learned that. Yes, I know all about thy past dealings. Why else should I concern myself with the likes of thee? I wouldst to have thee under my control, else dead! Indeed...I'd have had both."

Quote:

From KCdictionary: "Mechanist Religion - A schism of the Hammerite Religion (see) formed by the prophet Karras."

Quote:

A Thief Gold hint added for TMA, from b15: "To reject the Hammer is to denounce the Builder. --The Hammer Book of Tenets"

Quote:

From the TMA demo briefing: "'Lay down thine hammer, friend, lay down thine awl. Thy yesteryear trappings are splintered and old. Now rise up thine mace! And sword thusly brandish! The Builder fuels those who unite against malice.' --Taken from The New Scripture of the Master Builder"

From an UNUSED conversation for Thief Gold:
TH106800: "Hey, didja hear what happened to Gibson?"
TH206801: "No, what happened?"
TH106802: "Got 20 years in Cragscleft. He pulled a freelance job at the Bafford manor."
TH206803: "That's crazy!"
TH106804: "Not as crazy as what he was after!"
TH206805: "Okay, what was it?"
TH106806: "His silver scepter!"
TH206807: "[laughs] You mean to tell me this taffer went through all the trouble of breaking into Lord Bafford's manor only in order to steal a scepter that's already been stolen?"
TH106808: "Yup."
TH206809: "Why did he end up in Cragscleft, though? Figure Bafford would've just turned him over to the Sheriff."
TH106810: "Some Hammerite named Karras offered Bafford something in exchange for him."
TH206811: "What did Bafford get?"
TH106812: "Don't know, and I don't care. Got nothing to do with me, anyway!"

There's more, of course...

ManicMan on 16/3/2009 at 21:24

that last one is very intresting indeed. though i still get the feeling that by the end of thief 1 (AKA the Ending Movie) Karras has probebly been able to spilt.. too many things don't seam quite right but i can't figure out what right now..

anyway.. I never really figured out what the Cultivators do.. when the rust gas was released, it was still very harmful.. the Cultivator just seamed to be a fan that spread it out a bit.. anyone care to go off-topic for a second and explain that one to me?

jtr7 on 17/3/2009 at 00:04

Yes, Karras has likely split already, even if the Mechanists don't exist yet. Read what was said: He gathered followers over time with his progre3ssive philosophy. But even the devs said it was the Trickster's actions that were the last straw, and Karras moved aggressively at that point. The splintering was a loud crack, though in their hearts, many had already split away, biding time for Karras's big move. The Hammers had allowed the Trickster to get too close to annihilating the Order and their crafts, so the Mechanists were gonna make sure that was never a problem again.

Necrotic Mutox and Cultivators:
Watch that cutscene very carefully. The rust-gas passes over and between the blades of grass and does nothing. The Culitvator draws it in, changes it somehow, like whips it up, atomizes it, excites or ionizes the chemical. What comes out of the other side of the Cultivator then destroys the grass. You can see that the grass the rust-gas had been sitting on at the beginning was still intact, until the "cultivated" rust-gas curled back around. The opening of the rust-gas canister was silent, but the Cultivator makes that unique noise heard in Eavesdropping.

cultivator
2. an implement or machine for loosening the earth (or rust-gas molecules, heh heh) and destroying weeds ~~around~~ (AND) growing plants (AND animals, AND organic matter in general) :p

Nameless Voice on 17/3/2009 at 02:32

The water mages might also have held back the seas to allow the mages to safely travel there using the underwater route that the Mechanists later take.

But I never thought that the Mechanists knew of the Keepers' entrance to the Lost City. When the one is talking about the evidence of Garrett's previous visit, her friend scoffs at her for believing that a man could have had the "lung of steel" that would have been needed "swim 'neath the waves" to reach the Lost City their way.

Meisterdieb on 17/3/2009 at 02:43

Quote Posted by Nameless Voice

But I never thought that the Mechanists knew of the Keepers' entrance to the Lost City. When the one is talking about the evidence of Garrett's previous visit, her friend scoffs at her for believing that a man could have had the "lung of steel" that would have been needed "swim 'neath the waves" to reach the Lost City their way.

Reading that conversation again, I wonder if that mechanists actually saw something/ someone steal that parchment he's talking about...

Just rewatched the final cutscene of TDP, and we actually get to see someone in skind of workshop with mask and watchers behind him. Which either is dramatic foreshadowing again or indicates that Karras and his followers are very busy preparing for the schism ... or both.