fett on 10/5/2010 at 15:53

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Let me say from the outset that I mostly LOVE Assassin's Creed. I just finished it a few days ago (I'm behind, sue me) and I was sufficiently satisfied and entertained for my $20. EM has mentioned this game as an inspiration for T4.

Here's why it shouldn't be:

1) Intel Gathering
AC's intel gathering idea is far superior to anything ever done in Thief. Eavesdropping, Pickpocketing, and even Interrogations are fun, dangerous, and interesting ways to get plot necessary info to the player. But here's what didn't work about those things:

a) Hiro Nakamura time-stopping
Know what yanked me out of the game faster than anything else? 10 minute conversations with the dying mark as I stand on the execution platform in front of hundreds of onlookers. This is sloppy exposition, at best. I've just spent an entire level gathering info about this person - there should be no need for a monologue every time I kill a mark. If there is, you did something very wrong in the level itself - fix it, don't cram 5 minutes of story into the end game on every level. Garrett is invisible. He doesn't do anything in public (neither should an assassin). People who kill in public are murderers, not assassins. Most of us re-load if someone even spots Garrett. Time should not stop when I pick a lock, read a book,or overhear a conversation either. Keep me in the game. Intel gathering should be seamlessly and naturally incorporated into the game, regardless of the source of that information.


b) Map Markers.
I understand that AC's gameboard is an entire city, rather than the mansions, city sections, or forests of Thief. It's a lot of ground to traverse looking for clues. Map Markers essentially tell the player, "You're not smart or patient enough to find these on your own." Even if they had been a bit more vague, such as a static map with an X to mark where the person normally hangs out or does business. The brilliance of Thief is that the original designers created maps that ensured the player would find these clues seemingly on their own, yet without hand-holding linearity (the non-linearity of AC was great btw). How did they do that? By a concentrated cooperation of briefing info, eavesdropping, and readables. If they didn't get the info on one path, they'd pick it up on another, leaving the remaining info to be discovered on a second play through. Look, I've been playing Thief for almost 10 years and I heard an AI bark in T2 the other day that was new to me. Wealth of information, and ways of gathering it, leads to wealth of immersion and choices for the player. Which brings me to:

c) I Am Not Illiterate
It took me halfway through AC to realize I could read the stuff I was pickpocketing from informants. Oh! There is an actual note to look at? Yeah, but the designers assumed that because I'm a modern gamer, I don't want to read anything. The alternative was to slap the high points into an on screen box to MAKE SURE I DON'T MISS ANYTHING. The point of Thief is that Garrett is careful and methodical, and if he doesn't read something and gets killed or lost as a result, IT'S YOUR OWN FUCKING FAULT. Either play the game more carefully or go play Halo. One of THE most satisfying elements of Thief is clicking a scroll lying under a desk and immediately being able to read important information on it - right then and there, the whole thing, displayed on the screen. Not tucked away in some sub-menu in case I get bored or lost later. Splinter Cell is absolutely plagued by this thinking. "Don't make the player slow down to think about anything, just tell him who to stab or strangle next." Bleh. This is so far removed from the original intent of the Thief franchise that it should go without saying.


2) Irrelevant Mini-Games
Deadly Shadows' lock picking was as close as anyone wants to get to mini-games. They are insipid in Bioshock 1, and embarrassing in AC. Who the hell put all those flags there, why, and what good does it do me to retrieve them? Yet, there they are, sparkling in the sun, and XBox achievement intrusively and inexplicably inserted into Crusade era Jerusalem. I understand this was fixed in AC2, but the moment I forget I'm in The City, you the designer have irrevocably broken Thief. Its primary strength is immersion, both in the character and the City and anything that violates that makes it something I can get in other games. Closed ecology should be the rule here.

3) Boss Battles
Know what's most alluring about an assassin (or a thief)? NO ONE KNOWS WHO THEY ARE. ISA screwed the pooch on this one by plastering Garrett's face all over wanted posters and letting everyone in the marketplace blabber on about him. Don't stroke my ego, let me be faceless. Altiar spends the entire level sneaking around, secretly gathering information about his mark, only to be FORCED to kill him in public, in broad daylight. If you think Thief players need an "end game" or "boss battle" at the end of each level to achieve satisfying gameplay, you are dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, wrong. We want to quietly grab someone's shit, tuck it in our cloak, and hop out of an upstairs window, without ever laying eyes on the bloke we stole it from. Any Thief designer who doesn't believe this has no business working on the game. If I have to explain why this is satisfying to you, chances are you won't understand it anyway. I hear EA is hiring.


4) Combat
Please don't. Just...don't. :nono:

Again, AC is a GREAT game for what it is, but the ONLY thing remotely inspirational for Thief seems to be the crowd blending. But Garrett also works at night, and doesn't like crowds, so just...don't. We'll take Altiar's climbing abilities, and Sam Ficher's wall-jumping/hiding moves. Other than that, go play The Bonehoard or Life of the Party for inspiration and leave AC and SC at home. Please.

BrokenArts on 10/5/2010 at 18:07

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OK Ok, I agree, just give us the friggin funds, and the equipment. With all the taffers here, it'll get done right. You want something done right........do it yourselves.

Avalon on 10/5/2010 at 19:39

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Yeah, there are some things I would love to see in Thief - the crazy jumping and climbing, and generally how you move around in the world - but even those, I can't see them working in the kind of Thief we're used to, because their implementation involves "holding one key down while running a line while the computer determines the actions needed to traverse the terrain."

I'm not sure I would necessarily be opposed to Thief making a change in that direction, but it does cause a huge disconnect. Sure, it's fun to watch your guy do all these crazy jumps and scaling walls, but you're not actually involved. You're holding the A button and your forward key and he's doing all of it for you. Imagine how much more interesting it would be if you had to take involved control of every ledge grasp and every jump - but then also imagine how hard that could be to pull off for the "modern gamer," or how much it could redefine the annoyance of the jumping puzzle. Something to think about I guess.

My largest concern is that the game will lose the rest of its immersion for more of this "achievement" crap, and the handholding, and all of the little nuances that have appeared in gaming just since the previous installment. Immersion isn't really something we even talk about in gaming anymore, and that's sad. Even the first person genre itself is beginning to die off in favor of the detached third person angle.

Briareos H on 10/5/2010 at 20:31

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You don't even need to look any further than TDM for Thief movement done right and actually improved. It might be wishful thinking on EM's part, but I don't think there is much in AC that could inspire T4, unless having a cool cloaked rogue in medieval times counts as inspiration.

mothra on 14/5/2010 at 16:24

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focus group x didn't get feature y it and instead of refining it or explaining it better to the player we canned it.

concerning AC: I can't agree more, there is just no sense of connection to the world as I had in Thief. Thief is all about physicality for me, the fact that I felt my own avatar is the tool I need to succeed but at the same time the source for all the dangers I face is unparalelled - mirrors edge is the only game I can think of that pulled that off somehow. I make sounds, I breath heavy, I can be seen in the light, my actions, e.g. killing or disabling a guard, can make it easier or harder for me. SC and AC with its canned animations and auto-features did not make me feel like I really climbed a building. Prince of Persia - SOT did that much better. The only time I felt immersed in the parkour in AC was when I was jumping off a building or ledge, there I was convinced by the engine that I was falling and gravity holds my destiny, not the auto-button.