froghawk on 8/6/2013 at 20:36
Quote Posted by faetal
I think the problem is that if you look at the US as "the world" (or continual unrest in say, Africa), then yes, humanity does indeed look fucked. The whole world isn't like the US though. I don't want to insult people's countries here, because most people on here are from the US and I love you guys, but seriously, the place is fucking horrifying if you're on the outside looking in.
Obvious disclaimer that the nature of news reporting means I only hear the worst about the US and that most people there are actually decent human beings, it's just that the world's eye view of the US really isn't pretty, as Dethtoll has adequately referenced above.
As a US Citizen, I can tell you that it's pretty horrifying from the inside looking out, as well. It's very, very clear than our government does not care about its citizens AT ALL. And it's not just about what's happening to us or doing to ourselves, but what we're doing to the world - through environmental pollution and destruction, overseas labor, support of corrupt governments... We could fix so many things wrong with the world as a whole, and we choose to do nothing because it's cheaper and easier, and why should the people with the money and power care?
voodoo47 on 8/6/2013 at 20:59
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
If the world is going to burn it'll burn. Meh.
oh it will. I just hope I'll be there to see it when it happens. and laugh.
faetal on 8/6/2013 at 21:38
Quote Posted by Brethren
Yeah, a lot of it's worse, far worse in some cases. The problem is everything the U.S. does is in the spotlight and every little thing gets over reported by the media. You can bet there's really bad, awful shit going on in a million little different corners of the earth that you never hear about, and never will. This isn't a case of "the U.S. is an awful place," it's a case of "every bad thing that happens here gets reported by CNN."
Yes, and I disclaimed both of those points in my post. As in other places, e.g. African nations enduring civil war - I also said that my view was heavily tinged with media bias.
I was responding to Dethtoll's very US-centric post, hence my focus on the US. The post seemed to underscore the state of humanity, rather than the US and other places, e.g. Burma where horrific shit goes on.
I find that the less attention I pay to the media, the more I can focus on how the majority of people are fine.
Xorak on 8/6/2013 at 22:08
I don't really buy any of it, tbh. We are living in the greatest era ever. People have the freedom to do anything they want, just because they choose to become absolute scum doesn't mean freedom and liberty doesn't work. Think of how many serial killers, murderers, rapists and criminals existed when nobody had any clue about their activities. There were probably tens of thousands of Albert Fish's walking around everywhere without anyone stopping them.
Now we're just more aware. And because the world is so safe, every bad event just becomes increasingly incongruous. But instead of saying we're more aware and thus better prepared to deal with the problem, we have to go full mental and pretend the world is worse than before.
Yakoob on 8/6/2013 at 22:31
I'm with Xorak, I never bought into the doom and gloom talk. The world has always been burning and humanity destroying itself, we just now have better and faster ways of advertising that backed up by monetary incentives to do so (bad news sells). Pretty much every single generation believed that they will see the apocalypse in their lifetime.
EDIT: that being said, after traveling a bit I'd agree US isn't exactly the bees knees. It's far more livable than many other places but far from the freedom and "american dream" utopia people like to think.
Muzman on 9/6/2013 at 04:30
Most of these articles aren't incredible because 'people suck'. That shit is easy. What's truly unnerving about most of those is that the so-called "Free-est and greatest nation in history" is institutionally batshit to the core, it would seem. It's like there's a contest to see which state, company or office can be the most convolutedly nuts and still be "legal" (like the FBI or the NSA et al going "well, the last ruling says you need a warrant to look at eavesdropped material. Great! It doesn't say you can't collect it and tell everyone you're not looking at it! (yet). We'll do that!" Who thinks like this?! From Wall Street on down it's like "We don't do spirit of the law anymore. We just game the wording as hard as we can until someone stops us!")
While I think that Libertarian/separatist/anarchist/survivalist/anti-government/anti-democratic strain that runs through the nation's psyche is counter productive to doing anything about, I can see how "It's all broken. Fuck it." could seem like the right attitude some days.
(disclaimer: yes yes, terribly unrepresentative, mostly things work ok, despair misplaced and excessive, things generally pretty good in the west, it's a complex on going situation with many many threads to it, agree completely)
DoTheGeek on 9/6/2013 at 09:28
The sole cause = $
as a reflection of human nature, that is.
faetal on 9/6/2013 at 14:12
Quote Posted by Muzman
Most of these articles aren't incredible because 'people suck'. That shit is easy. What's truly unnerving about most of those is that the so-called "Free-est and greatest nation in history" is institutionally batshit to the core, it would seem. It's like there's a contest to see which state, company or office can be the most convolutedly nuts and still be "legal" (like the FBI or the NSA et al going "well, the last ruling says you need a warrant to look at eavesdropped material. Great! It doesn't say you can't collect it and tell everyone you're not looking at it! (yet). We'll do that!"
Who thinks like this?! From Wall Street on down it's like "We don't do spirit of the law anymore. We just game the wording as hard as we can until someone stops us!")
While I think that Libertarian/separatist/anarchist/survivalist/anti-government/anti-democratic strain that runs through the nation's psyche is counter productive to doing anything about, I can see how "It's all broken. Fuck it." could seem like the right attitude some days.
(disclaimer: yes yes, terribly unrepresentative, mostly things work ok, despair misplaced and excessive, things generally pretty good in the west, it's a complex on going situation with many many threads to it, agree completely)
The US is kind of a special case, for being essentially a 3rd world country for those below a certain income bracket. It's not just that the cause is $ like DtG says, I'd say it's more the obvious outcome of unfettered free market economics and religious extremism. The free market part is the logical outcome of shareholders demanding infinite growth - when capitalism hits its equilibrium, it should essentially stay more or less still, but requiring growth past that point means having to start fucking over those beneath you.
Nicker on 9/6/2013 at 16:04
Quote Posted by faetal
...when capitalism hits its equilibrium, it should essentially stay more or less still, but requiring growth past that point means having to start fucking over those beneath you.
And those who come after you.
There is a bumper sticker which is popular for motor-homes. "We're spending our grandkid's inheritance."
They have no idea. So much of our wealth today will be paid for by generations unborn. Not just the money either.
faetal on 9/6/2013 at 17:33
Exactly, property ownership has by and large become a diminished option for anyone below a certain threshold. Cost of living has been going up since the mid to late '70s (around the time when some have posited that capitalism hit its equilibrium where it benefited the most people) far faster than income & benefits, so the average person has been getting steadily poorer since then. The worst part of the '80s was the relaxing of lending, which was used to essentially give artificial stimulation to The Economy*, until that hit its equilibrium limit. Lately it seems that a lot of the additional growth is being provided by subsidies, stimulus packages and most recently privatisation of the public sector. I'm kind of worried about what happens when that all hits the ceiling, because I doubt shareholders are going to relax their opinion on growth just because they've filled the available space. Once all of our mandatory and voluntary spending is being paid into the private sector, I'm not sure how growth can continue. I know the traditional model dictates that growth is offset by recession, but going by the last 50 years, the recessions are nowhere near the weight of the subsequent growth. Something tells me the next recession will be a big one and there won't be as many options to get out of it.
* - official reference to The Economy should always be taken to mean The Offshore Accounts of the people who own most of the economy
