fett on 27/4/2012 at 14:15
The original games brought "more than just stealth."
I have the sinking feeling my posts are pearls before swine. Nevermind rationality - cue nerd panic on 3...2...1!!!
WhiteFantom on 27/4/2012 at 16:55
Quote Posted by fett
The original games brought "more than just stealth."
I have the sinking feeling my posts are pearls before swine. Nevermind rationality - cue nerd panic on 3...2...1!!!
It's not that one phrase by itself that appears problematic, it's that phrase taken in context with the other things that have been said (treating the game as a "new IP," comparisons to the treatment of the Deus Ex franchise in making DE:HR, which departed from the spirit of the original in many ways and included gratuitous boss fights, etc.). The Thief games have always brought "more than just stealth," yes, but based on many of the other things D’Astous has said, it seems (to me, anyway) that phrase takes on a potentially disappointing meaning.
Renault on 27/4/2012 at 18:22
I think people forget that in the opening cutscene to TDP, there's Garrett shooting a Hammerite in the neck with a broadhead. "More than just stealth" is fine as long as stealth is still given the most attention and is the primary focus. If we start getting into Garrett fighting alongside some sidekicks or giving him access to some super mega wepaon, well then we're obviously in trouble.
jtr7 on 27/4/2012 at 20:46
A cutscene isn't the game. There are several things in the cutscenes never seen or duplicated in-game, but at least, shooting a guard in the neck is allowable half the time. The violence of the promo/intro cutscenes isn't forgotten, it's mostly unenforced in the game itself, and sometimes, can't even be recreated. What is being forgotten by almost everyone, is how each mission brought unique challenges, including forced ghosting and brutal free-for-alls, depending on how deep Garrett was into the plot, how up to his neck in monstrosities, his location--even vastly different from gamespace to adjoining gamespace. If it's kept organic, instead of all things to all people at all times--ludicrous notion--then it will be a rich experience along the lines of the original template.
fett, the Thief boards have been pearls vs. swine for years, now. :(
fett on 27/4/2012 at 22:22
This is simple: If stealth was the primary focus of gameplay in DX:HR, how can not be even more so in T4? Boss fights aside/corrected why would combat be encouraged or forced in T4 when it was clearly the least desirable play option in a game not even really known for it's stealth play? Wow, guys. You're freaking out over a non-issue. Are we this desperate to discuss T4? Wait until the rocket launcher and turret sequences show up to start losing your shit.
jay pettitt on 27/4/2012 at 23:38
Actually I found DX:HR depressingly (if competently) violent. No mistake, DX:HR considers non violent approaches to be fringe behaviour. True, you're given a choice between violently stabbing people in the face with a bionic sword and gratuitously stealth snapping their necks in two (neck snapping is non-lethal in DX:HR, though my chickens disagree) and it isn't actually compulsory to blow up idle bystanders with the rocket launcher - but that hardly titillates my T4 zones. Hell, the Steam Achievements even mock you for not being manly enough if you try and settle the Bar Tab mission using diplomacy.
At one point in the game if you spare someone's life, you're rewarded with a silencer so you can stealth machine gun people to death as compensation.
DX:HR is a game for people who read Tom Clancy, not Charles Dickens.
Granted I am unrealistically hoping that T4 will manage to spend less time leaning on the violence crutch than T3, T2 and T1 ever did, because I happen to think that would be a fitting way for Thief to evolve. But yeah, most likely I'll read a book instead.
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Tomi on 27/4/2012 at 23:39
Quote Posted by Too Much Coffee
Bringing "more than just stealth" and "respecting the spirit of the original" seems contradictory.
Like fett says, the original games
did bring more than just stealth, it's just some of us fans who have decided what the "true" way to play Thief is. But why did the developers ever waste time on adding broadhead and fire arrows or explosive mines (etc) in the game, if they were never meant to be used? It's because they decided in their great wisdom that there is no
one true way of playing the game - there's "more than just stealth".
Actually - and I know that I may be quite alone with this opinion - in a way I wish that there were more (good) reasons to actually use all the different weapons in the game. Apart from the blackjack and water+rope arrows (and flash bombs if they count as a weapon) I don't use any of the other special tools that the game offers, and I think that it's a shame. For some reason I've decided that Garrett is the Ultimate Good Guy who never kills anyone unless it's absolutely necessary, yet I always dream of dropping down enemy archers from the rooftops with my bow. :devil: Or even using my bow for something else than just dousing some torches. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the non-violent way, but it's good to have different options.
I tend to play the "good guy" in most other games too, but I don't feel
that bad about having to kill anyone in them. But in Thief I know that I would feel guilty if I had to kill some "poor little guard who's only doing his job"... which is a bit funny, because Garrett isn't even portrayed as some pacifist hippie niceguy in the game. Could it be that playing Thief in the non-stealthy way just isn't very satisfying?
jtr7 on 28/4/2012 at 07:19
Those first to call others hysterical are actually the more hysterical. I don't see anything really hysterical. What I see are people who care about something taking what little faux-preventative measures they can, in the hopes that someone else in an actual position to do something about it will care, too.
TDS did introduce more ways to cause pain and suffering and lethal damage plus relaxed restrictions, and the most brutal animated promo for a Thief game ever, and the most combat/violent Thief in-game footage ever. Since the original devs took a step in the violent direction, and EM plans to expand on Thief's audience and content, it's not much of a stretch to assume--until stated otherwise officially--and with more Thief fans calling for increased combat and violent options, that T4 will take even further steps in the violent direction. Disappointment and concern it really will happen aren't hysteria, nor is texting into the void in case it's picked up.
Melan on 28/4/2012 at 08:08
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
DX:HR is a game for people who read Tom Clancy, not Charles Dickens.
Let's be honest here. Computer games have always been for people who would prefer technotrillers, bad fantasy, comic books and other kinds of nerd lit over Charles Dickens. That includes Thief, the original Deus Ex, and both System Shock games.
jay pettitt on 28/4/2012 at 08:31
Thief is surprisingly hot on Dickensian themes. Or at least T1 and T2 were. It's the portrayal of the wider ills of a grossly inequitable society that gives foil to Mr G and creates his status as an anti-hero.
