Dev says Thief 4 will “bring more than just stealth”

Too Much Coffee on 28/4/2012 at 15:15

Quote Posted by Tomi

Like fett says, the original games did bring more than just stealth,

Well obviously. But you are misinterpreting the real concern. Obviously there was more to do in Thief than lurk in shadows and blackjack guards. But somehow I refuse to believe that LGS while conceiving their game that making it a game for all playstyles was their main objective. Sure you could use broadhead arrows or your sword to kill things. But we all know Garrett's skill at those seemed "conveniently" handicapped. And for good reason. And you could just kill things with no other concern if you wanted; but killing them without raising alarms or getting unwanted attention was to me the real idea of using such weapons.

Goldmoon Dawn on 28/4/2012 at 17:59

The point was that stealth was the primary focus. They included the "lesser" ways to play to indeed accomodate "all playing styles". If you played as a mass murderer in Thief you werent supposed to feel bad. However, if you played a no-kill game you *were* supposed to feel better than the rest. They emphasised stealth because it was an "elite" way to play at the time, continuing in the tradition of the Ultima series. When will you people ever do your damn homework? :) Will this new generation company in this new modern time pay attention not only to Thiefs past, but also the games that made Thief what it was? How the hell would I know! I would ask EM what their stance is on the classic crpgs to get an idea of how true they will be staying to Thiefs roots. The first game in this little series that everyone seems to love SO much, was nothing more than a huge "tribute" to the classic crpgs.

WhiteFantom on 28/4/2012 at 19:52

Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn

If you played as a mass murderer in Thief you werent supposed to feel bad.

Actually, I think they did a pretty good job making you feel bad for killing instead of using stealth, particularly since on Expert in most missions you're not allowed to kill, and it's even phrased in such a way as to make you feel a bit embarrassed about considering it (i.e. "You're a thief, not a murderer."). It was implied--both directly and indirectly--that only the truly inept need resort to killing (and the thief-not-a-murderer concept also seems to show a certain attitude toward Garrett's character--that he may be a criminal, but there are certain lines even he wouldn't cross).

Goldmoon Dawn on 28/4/2012 at 20:51

Yes, you get it. Something tells me you've never played the Ultima series though, or you would have understood what I (and Thief) meant a little better.

Yandros on 29/4/2012 at 02:10

I remember playing Ultima I on a 5.25" floppy disc on my Apple II+ in 1981. Wow I'm old.

jtr7 on 29/4/2012 at 05:40

Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn

Yes, you get it. Something tells me you've never played the Ultima series though, or you would have understood what I (and Thief) meant a little better.

I find nothing appealing about the Ultima series as games. What I like are elements of it. I would never have purchased those games had I had the money for a system that could run them and space to install them, because I was never interested in them as games, and never saw point in purchasing a game I wouldn't play. I still have no interest in Ultima other than as major history in fantasy gaming, and don't see anything in the gameplay I could sustain enjoyment over.

Thief isn't Ultima, and what I love about Thief is the sum collection of elements, gameplay, and atmosphere, not found anywhere else in one package, not even in most FMs; and as for source materials, the Thief games are filled with references to hundreds of non-Ultima sources as well as Ultima, but I respect that it came from several schools of creative thought, and not just games, and those other games also have roots.

When I played Thief the first time, I'd been around and almost immersed in D&D, as far as one can without being into it and never played it or the other pen & paper children/cousins, and know the lingo enough to get most of the jokes. I'd helped create character sheets for custom pen & paper games based on D&D, but had and still have no interest in those games other than story creation, which is why my gaming fanatic roommate came to me for ideas and because I could make custom gaming materials better than he could, and my PC was newer and more resourceful than his TRS-80. I've never much enjoyed the Fantasy genre unless the story spoke to me, or it was diluted or mixed with other genres, or came across as science fiction, but not the explosion/lasers/monster-of-the-week cheese. I was into the Hulk and Spider-Man, Superman, and Star Wars, and then into Frank Herbert's Dune.

Thief, and the Lord of the Rings novel(s) reissues in anticipation of Peter Jackson's movies, came to me around the same time. I only read Tolkien's novels because my late father had had an old box-set on his bookshelf, but mainly because it was a hippie thing to have read them, and I have similar tastes in literature as my father and until I had my "ministroke", I was going to check out many titles and authors I remember seeing on that old bookshelf. But reading Tolkien was also to respect the source material before checking out the movies once they would arrive in theaters. Thief reflected a lot of what I had read in Tolkien, and I could see the Tolkien roots in D&D, also influencing much of Thief without copying CRPGs so heavily. Importantly, it was my first real appreciation of the fantasy genre, after having seen a lot of fantasy films and television and never felt at home with it, while Star Wars was the most fun I'd ever had with fantasy disguised as sci-fi. I then looked to the devs' literary inspirations and read Jack Vance, Fritz Leiber, and found a lot of unintentional echoes in Robin Hobb's works. I never got the chance to read a single work of Lovecraft.

I will not be learning my Ultima through playing the games. I haven't even played Thief Gold or TDS all the way though more than once, and TDP and TMA only twice. I haven't been a gamer since the late 1980s, and unless my life changes in specific ways, won't ever be.

Quote Posted by jay pettitt

Thief is surprisingly hot on Dickensian themes. Or at least T1 and T2 were. It's the portrayal of the wider ills of a grossly inequitable society that gives foil to Mr G and creates his status as an anti-hero.

Yep! It was a big part of the art direction, too, as well as an anti-Robin Hood.

Captain Spandex on 30/4/2012 at 10:55

I take some solace in the fact that D'Astous is essentially the P.R. guy. Eidos Montréal's slightly more French (and slightly more sane) answer to Peter Molyneux. It's sort of in his job description to make these types of statements, regardless of their actual validity.

What worries me more is the sudden staff turnover. The growing number of job positions now cited as 'open' on the Eidos Montréal website, Paul Weir's recent departure under a haze of ambiguity... that's more legitimate cause for trepidation, in my view.

Dia on 30/4/2012 at 11:34

Quote Posted by Captain Spandex

What worries me more is the sudden staff turnover. The growing number of job positions now cited as 'open' on the Eidos Montréal website, Paul Weir's recent departure under a haze of ambiguity... that's more legitimate cause for trepidation, in my view.

What I've been saying all along. Also: each new-hire will bring their own ideas to the table, and I fear T4 might just end up being a hash of those; not to mention EM's attempt to 'modernize' the game. I'm wondering if T4 will even end up being completed and ever be released, period. Kind of difficult to complete the development of a game when you keep firing people and/or people keep leaving (for whatever reason).

jay pettitt on 30/4/2012 at 12:18

I don't actually have any idea what staff turnaround is normally like in 'the industry' and whether what's going on or not going on at EM is a cause of concern.

But it does occur that whatever direction T4 goes in, good or bad, The Dark Mod is ours and ours alone. We now have the engine source code and complete control over its art, assets, gameplay, development, story, sound design, voice acting, documentation, community outreach, publicity - everything. Plus it's cross platform - it works on Windows, Mac and Linux and not just the game but the editor too - so everybody is included, which I just love.

It's not Thief, but then there's little sign that T4 will be either.

Fafhrd on 2/5/2012 at 03:11

Quote Posted by Captain Spandex

New Positions != turnover. With Thief 4's production ramping up, they'll be bringing in more people.

Paul Weir was on contract through his own company, Earcom, not a direct hire at EM. It's just as likely that Eidos didn't renew his contract because they wanted somebody in-house as it is that he quit. You'll note that not only is EM hiring a new Audio Director, but Sound Designers as well. Previously Paul had been doing three jobs (Audio Director, Composer, and Sound Designer), which is kind of ridiculous.