Goldmoon Dawn on 2/5/2012 at 22:18
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
If you played as a mass murderer in Thief you werent supposed to feel bad. However, if you played a no-kill game you *were* supposed to feel better than the rest. They emphasised stealth because it was an "elite" way to play at the time, continuing in the tradition of the Ultima series.
Quote Posted by WhiteFantom
Actually, I think they did a pretty good job making you feel bad for killing instead of using stealth, particularly since on Expert in most missions you're not allowed to kill, and it's even phrased in such a way as to make you feel a bit embarrassed about considering it (i.e. "You're a thief, not a murderer."). It was implied--both directly and indirectly--that only the truly inept need resort to killing.
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
Yes, you get it. Something tells me you've never played the Ultima series though, or you would have understood what I (and Thief) meant a little better.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Thief isn't Ultima, and what I love about Thief is the sum
collection of elements, gameplay, and atmosphere, not found anywhere else in one package
Indeed. When it comes to the singular element of playing through a potentially violent game without causing damage to the opponent, I turn to Ultima IV and V and even VI (really every Ultima since IV). Ultima IV was the first game to incorporate these non traditional ways to solve objectives. To the ones who were playing these games through the 80's, including the entire LGS team, this game in particular was monumental. The game was based on cause and effect. Harm people and your journey will be made more difficult. Help people and your path will be easier. It had never been done before, and truthfully, to the extent that Ultima IV achieved, has not been done since. Considering the game was released in 1985, that is quite remarkable. It would be easy to go on and on about the Ultima series and its vast impact on the vg industry, but I am dangerously close to saying too much as it is! Besides, I dont like getting too long winded.
It is also important to note that Richard Garriott didnt go away when the Ultima series ended in 1999. In fact he is just as relevant today as when he basically started the era of crpg. Many people in the industry including Spector among others seek his council on game design, as he is still extremely active in the video game industry.
Strangely, Garriott has never publicly stated his appraisal of the Thief series. :sly:
Pyrian on 2/5/2012 at 22:50
:confused: How do you do a non-violent run of Ultima IV? You can run from combat, but that hammers your Valor score, and there are non-optional encounters right up until the finish.
Al_B on 3/5/2012 at 21:31
I thought the idea in Ultima IV was to not engage in combat until attacked and to allow your enemies to flee if they start to run away. I doubt it's possible to complete it without engaging in combat but the fact it tried to reward compassion towards enemies was unusual at the time.
Goldmoon Dawn on 3/5/2012 at 21:45
Yes, I was obviously being a little too black and white on the subject. Nevertheless, it amazes me how few people here seem to have played these classics!
jtr7 on 3/5/2012 at 22:53
I know that Richard Garriott had an epiphany and felt he had a duty to instill in his games a sense of morality to impress upon the player, and that's appreciated.
As for all the fans of Ultima on the boards, they all are keeping it a secret. Unfortunately, from the outside, it seems like an exclusive club that lets the games speak for themselves, with hardly anyone over the last decade-plus pointing out the connections, and certainly not with excitement. As you know, I'm the type of person who finds something and wants to share. Since Ultima fans roundly do not want to share, it's just one more incompatibility I have with it as a player, it seems.
While doing so much research on the Thief games, and seeking out inside jokes and homage as another kind of meta-game, I've rarely come across any mentioned Ultima connections, due to lack of sharing--I must conclude--while I've found tons of eager references to movies, literature, music, arts, and culture, as well as the pen & paper world of D&D, with very little admission of Ultima. This doesn't intrigue me about Ultima, but it does intrigue the hell out of me about the secrecy, and I feel I probably don't wanna know, eh? I think it's uncomfortably weird. Fans coulda shared, and collectively they never have, nor will, I assume, so be it.
And still, I swear, before I ever knew about the Ultima games as anything other than boxes of game discs on a store shelf and ads in magazines, I saw the word "Britannia" in an unpatched TMA text. I'd like to know if an early copy of TMA ever had a readable containing that important pronoun, and wonder if Lord Janco and Barak might really have existed once in TDP.
Al_B on 3/5/2012 at 23:14
jtr, I have a lot of respect for you and the amount of information that you have accumulated about the thief games. However, there is no secret agenda as far as the Ultima games are concerned. The Thief games are their own entity and although LGS obviously developed two Ultima games there are few connections with those games and Thief other than some game mechanics.
I know you're not too interested in the games, but you should really try them. Whatever limitations you have with your computer I can guarantee that if it is able to allow you to post to TTLG you can play at least Ultima IV to VI and you might actually enjoy the experience.
Goldmoon Dawn on 4/5/2012 at 00:18
Quote Posted by jtr7
As for all the fans of Ultima on the boards, they all are keeping it a secret. Unfortunately, from the outside, it seems like an exclusive club that lets the games speak for themselves, with hardly anyone over the last decade-plus pointing out the connections, and certainly not with excitement.
:cheeky: jtr I love you man. Other than the two obvious and direct references, Ultima contributed more to the.... soul, of Thief.
Quote Posted by jtr7
While doing so much research on the Thief games, and seeking out inside jokes and homage as another kind of meta-game, I've rarely come across any mentioned Ultima connections, due to lack of sharing--I must conclude--while I've found tons of
eager references to movies, literature, music, arts, and culture, as well as the pen & paper world of D&D, with very little admission of Ultima.
The irony of this for me is that everyone who was lucky enough to not only play through Ultimas IV~VII while they were relevant, but to also have played Thief The Dark Project upon glorious release would say the same thing. When you first booted up 'ol Dark and started to journey through their little world, the stamp of the classic Ultima "atmosphere" was everywhere. In stunning true 3d free moving environments for the first time no less! I mean, come on.... The Hammers? I get giddy just thinking about it still, after all these years! Im not saying that Lord Bafford and Constantine's Madhouse are a... tribute to? ...a tip of the hat to? I mean, who are these people being laid into the foundation of the new way?! Whose raging rivers and streams are being tamed for our new purposes?! Who is now shaping the future! Shouldest I not do what the Builder would do?
Rabid, frothy fanatic.
:ebil:
Thirith on 4/5/2012 at 09:23
Having played Ultima from IV to IX, as well as both Ultima Underworld titles and all three Thief games, I have little idea what you're going on about, Goldmoon Dawn. Obviously there's more of a link between the Underworld games and Thief, but then there's more Ultima in the Gothic games than there is in Thief, and there's more Underworld in Arx Fatalis.
I'm hoping that you can clarify your point, because appealing to the 'soul' of Thief and linking it to the Ultima games strikes me as tenuous at best.
Edit: And jtr7, your apparent notion of the Secretive Brotherhood of Ultima Fans is a weird, strikingly paranoid one... You may want to leave off the espresso by the bucketful.
jtr7 on 4/5/2012 at 10:02
teh lulz. Your notion of seriousness and literal fear is more of a real concern if you believe your judgment. The super secrecy is what's weird, whatever the odd reason, and it's that secrecy I wonder about. If having played Ultima, and knowing what one can know for it, is truly worthy of such secrecy, which I personally doubt, than why shouldn't it be worrisome to an outsider, anyway? Come on, man, it's hundreds of taffers that keep it to themselves, who won't share, but only insist it may only be discovered through playing it for one's self, *mischievous grin*. Why is it paranoid to suggest it's probably not healthy to find out? Oh yeah, if it's taken as written with a bead of sweat and a quavering hand, versus a curiosity regarding many individuals' tight-lipped behavior over the same thing? Don't bother answering that. :rolleyes:
IS IT TIME TO VIRTUAL SLAP-FIGHT AGAIN!
Thirith on 4/5/2012 at 10:11
What fucking secrecy? You sound like a character in Foucault's Pendulum - because people don't talk incessantly about Ultima, there must be some secret about it?
