Weasel on 11/5/2012 at 18:16
Quote Posted by Vorn
No, Weasel...no...:nono:
"Greater extent" (quantity) and "different ways" (flavor), are both irrelevant, because they are simply variables of "more"...and "more" is the absolute difference of "stealth", in this context. Therefore, your conclusion is false, because you are distorting an absolute relationship (stealth vs. everything else) with an inapplicable relative concept.
Some stealth games are about stealth and other things that are naturally associated with a person attempting to be stealthy: walking, light and shadows, noises, opponents, locations, motives etc. They don't involve much beyond that. It is strictly true to say that these games are about "more than stealth," but that's not an interesting topic of discussion.
Thief includes all of these things, but what makes it special to me is that it also includes exploration, searching, navigation of treacherous environments, riddles and puzzle-solving, and personal side-stories about characters that you never interact with directly. It's about having a complete environment in which you (as Garrett) just happen to be doing stealthy things some of the time. In some missions, you can knock out or kill all of your opponents and yet only be halfway done.
Some people want more of the pure-stealth in Thief and less of some of those other aspects. Thief 2 moved in that direction (it didn't have any missions like Down in the Bonehoard, where some of the biggest threats to the player are traps and falling, and getting spotted by enemies isn't much of an issue).
To me, all of that is what "more than stealth" means. I'm hoping it means the same thing to the dev who said it.
Right now, the phrase doesn't mean much without context. It's nothing more than foreshadowing until the curtain is pulled back. If he just means "the game also has a story and enemies and buildings," then I agree that it's a pointless thing to say. If he's attempting to foreshadow the other kinds of things I mentioned as features of the game, it's not pointless at all.
Am I making sense yet?
Bakerman on 13/5/2012 at 22:01
Quote Posted by Vorn
You must understand Bakerman...
all stealth games are more than just stealth...so yes, he is indeed being as unreasonable as he is uninformative
to anyone...
Oh, I realise that. And I don't think he's being particularly informative either... I'm just looking at his statement from a different angle. I wouldn't put it past lots of gamers today to say 'Ah, Thief, it's just stealth! Boring...' Sad truth - though it may come from something as simple as a lack of in-depth knowledge about the game or genre. And a failure to appreciate that kind of gameplay, of course.
Quote Posted by Weasel
To me, all of that is what "more than stealth" means. I'm hoping it means the same thing to the dev who said it.
I so agree.
Quote Posted by Thirith
I'd love to play a game that brings the
Thief feel and gameplay to the modern world. I always felt that the stealth gameplay in
Deus Ex was only half as engaging as
Thief's stealth.
Also agreed. I really enjoyed Splinter Cell, but it's a very different sort of stealth game, and not just because of the trappings (you're a government agent, etc.). I actually had a ton of fun with the stealth in DX, but the game wasn't built around that mechanic as much as Thief was, so it was a little less satisfying.
Vorn on 20/5/2012 at 20:24
Quote Posted by Weasel
Some stealth games are about stealth and other things that are naturally associated with a person attempting to be stealthy: walking, light and shadows, noises, opponents, locations, motives etc. They don't involve much beyond that. It is strictly true to say that these games are about "more than stealth," but that's not an interesting topic of discussion.
Thief includes all of these things, but what makes it special to me is that it also includes exploration, searching, navigation of treacherous environments, riddles and puzzle-solving, and personal side-stories about characters that you never interact with directly. It's about having a complete environment in which you (as Garrett) just happen to be doing stealthy things some of the time. In some missions, you can knock out or kill all of your opponents and yet only be halfway done.
Some people want more of the pure-stealth in Thief and less of some of those other aspects. Thief 2 moved in that direction (it didn't have any missions like Down in the Bonehoard, where some of the biggest threats to the player are traps and falling, and getting spotted by enemies isn't much of an issue).
To me, all of that is what "more than stealth" means. I'm hoping it means the same thing to the dev who said it.
What "more than stealth" means to you, is based on an arbitrary interpretation, and therefore of no value to this discussion.
What is relevant, is D'Astous' communication itself...which of course, is just an insulting, meaningless puff.
ALL THIEF games were "more than stealth",
even when compared to each other.
TDP = "more than stealth"
TMA = "more than stealth"
TDS = "more than stealth"
+
Every stealth-based game = "more than stealth"
=
Saying THI4F will be "more than stealth" = D'Astous is acting like a complete idiot from a communications standpoint, because it provides zero value.
Quote Posted by Bakerman
Oh, I realise that. And I don't think he's being particularly informative either... I'm just looking at his statement from a different angle. I wouldn't put it past lots of gamers today to say 'Ah, Thief, it's just stealth! Boring...' Sad truth - though it may come from something as simple as a lack of in-depth knowledge about the game or genre. And a failure to appreciate that kind of gameplay, of course.
You see Bakerman...
It's like a cake, a tasty treat...the kind of thing that's wonderful to eat...Except you take away the frosting and everything sweet...And what have you got?...A Nebulous Naught!...:grr:
Papy on 22/5/2012 at 06:18
Quote Posted by Vorn
Saying THI4F will be "more than stealth" = D'Astous is acting like a complete idiot from a communications standpoint, because it provides zero value.
I hate to break it to you, but you are not the center of the universe. D'Astous' goal was obviously not to inform _you_.
Anyway, I hope you never watch TV, listen to radio, read a newspaper or even look at a web site because with all the ads, each having the same "zero value communication", it will surely drives you mad.
jtr7 on 22/5/2012 at 07:20
Uh, he knows it doesn't revolve around him. Haven't you noticed how the majority of complaints over EM's PR and/or lack of PR is of not being included as a fan nor as a fan community?
Vorn on 22/5/2012 at 07:24
Quote Posted by Papy
I hate to break it to you, but you are not the center of the universe. D'Astous' goal was obviously not to inform _you_.
Anyway, I hope you never watch TV, listen to radio, read a newspaper or even look at a web site because with all the ads, each having the same "zero value communication", it will surely drives you mad.
I hate to break it to you, but my comment had nothing to do with me personally, it had to do with the comment itself...and although it's true that some advertisement provides zero communication value, it doesn't drive me mad...so you needn't worry about that.
I would like to thank you for agreeing with my assessment that D'Astous is indeed delivering a zero, though next time I encourage you think about the universal value of information before you make a reply.
Erand on 22/5/2012 at 08:42
I think "more than just stealth" means they will be breaking conventions by including some new ideas to objective-based, story driven, single player stealth-games. It could mean some sort of multiplayer action incorporated with the single player game (like in Mass Effect 3), RPG elements (skill points, conversations, experience trees, bow upgrade...) or some sort of open-world (with different factions/storylines). Every stealth game "brings more than just stealth" - that goes without saying - however, D'Astous probably wouldn't have said that regarding Thi4f if there was no reason. There's probably going to be something new and unforeseen to Thief -series and they want to keep it a secret for now. Perhaps they're still experimenting with ideas and don't really want to "promise" anything yet.
As of yet, speculation, as exciting and hype-inducing it may be, is more or less futile. Time will tell.
jtr7 on 22/5/2012 at 08:51
I don't care about the secret stuff. There's more that isn't secret they could be mentioning and fueling excitement and trust with.
Anyway, it's been brought up before, but I wonder if T4 will have more in common with the cancelled PICASSIO than Thief: The Dark Project. In truth, more here would like that very much.
(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUAJbnMrsnE)
Briareos H on 22/5/2012 at 09:56
"More here" would like third person gameplay?
Papy on 22/5/2012 at 22:55
Quote Posted by Vorn
I hate to break it to you, but my comment had nothing to do with me personally
Of course it does. Your assessment that D'Astous is an idiot because it doesn't tell you something interesting to _you_ is, of course, only about you.
As for your assessment that D'astous comment as zero communication value, it is only true from your own and very personal perspective. If that comment helps the company to sell more games, then this comment has a lot of value. Not to you, but as I said, you are not the center of the universe.
