Did anyone get an impression of creative burnout at the end of The Black Parade?

Garrett731 on 3/12/2025 at 15:21

Quote Posted by skacky

I don't believe anyone has been disrespectful (you nor us in the TBP team, maybe FireMage was a bit blunt).

So to explain why we didn't want Arcane Sanctum to have unconventional elements: each mission in the campaign follows a specific archetype. Like in the original game, we tried to make them varied, and to also alternate between the broad archetypes. That's why you usually have a "normal" mission, followed by a supernatural one, and then another normal mission and so on. The only exception to this are Mission 4 and Mission 5, which are both heavily supernatural. For Arcane Sanctum, Mission 9, we wanted players to have a last classic Thief mission in human territory after Mission 8 that was our wildcard mission (more on that below), and Mission 10 which was designed from the get go as the very final, no-loot mission, which is why simply adding more things to do in that one won't solve its issues; it'd need to be redone from scratch. Arcane Sanctum was specifically described as "the calm before the storm", and was meant as a breather (despite the hostile objectives at the beginning).

Mission 8, Jaws of Darkness, was designed as the mission where we wanted to experiment with unconventional elements within Thief's frame because we wanted the player to be lost in uncharted territory, both in terms of navigation, and also in terms of mechanics. That's why you have a whole menagerie of unique critters with their own unique behaviours you do not see elsewhere in the campaign. We had more things planned, but these were cut either because they were too complicated, or were actually detrimental to the experience.

That's exactly what happened to Arcane Sanctum. At one point we had to sit down and think of whether this or that made for a better experience. Believe me, all that stuff regarding spellcasting or transmutation or potion-brewing would've made for a lesser mission, and one that was at odds with the campaign as a whole. We did not want to suddenly turn Hume into a spellcaster or being able to use complicated magical formulae because that's not who he is.

All of this combined is why I say, and feel, that there was no creative burnout during the making of the campaign. We had a lot of ideas. The good ones (or at least those we thought were good for the campaign) made it into TBP, the ones we thought were either detrimental, were scope creep or didn't gel with the core experience, were thrown out like in any other project. To be honest, there was an idea for Arcane Sanctum I adored, but it was just too complicated to make for absolutely no payoff, so it was canned. That's what happens.

It's fine and I totally understand; this is 8 years of hard work, so it's their right to be blunt.

That's really interesting; please tell me about the idea you adored but had to remove, because I'm sure it was wonderful. I understand your need to adhere to an archetypal structure, but it's a shame such interesting concepts had to be discarded (I'm sure it was difficult for a creative artist like you too).

If there were ideas you adored but had to remove, perhaps a compromise could be the answer. Instead of a remake, maybe a secret bonus mission for TBP that curious players can discover? Like, maybe the Arcane Sanctum is actually a clever façade, and the true magic and splendour of the Sanctum is hidden away. That way, you could insert the rest of your creative gems without jeopardising the archetypal crown (hope that metaphor makes sense.) It would also be fitting, given 'arcane' means mysterious or secret.

Regardless, if it's not to be, I respect your decision.

Off-topic, but I love the vertical, precipitous, and dangerous nature of your missions. This is a fun rope arrow technique I experimented with and demonstrated in The Brand on YouTube (I love rope arrows): (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy0mtH3QM-E)

Hanover Aldercash on 3/12/2025 at 16:02

I'll say this much as a die hard My Chemical Romance fan it was NOT REMOTELY WHELMING how I kept waiting for Gerard or Mikey or Toro to make an appearence and when I got to Arcane Sanctum I thought FINALLY an outdoor festival setting this is what it's all been leading up to there's gonna be a parade float with Mikey and the boys belting out "Welcome to the Black Parade" and everyone's gonna start cutting their wrists in time with the music just like the good old days when my father used to take me to see a marching band but NOPE just some harry potter wizard tower and not even a vehicle section.

1/10 pure carp

Garrett731 on 3/12/2025 at 16:22

Quote Posted by Hanover Aldercash

Haha, good one. My sister used to like My Chemical Romance.

downwinder on 3/12/2025 at 16:26

why does no one mention that amazing creature on last level behind the guy doing the ritual, i ran back there and made friends with him and he was the best creature i seen in a long time, i named him rocky we did some laps around the ritual area and i enjoyed it

mxleader on 4/12/2025 at 06:39

This is the weirdest rage-bait thread I've seen in a long time. The Black Parade is the shizzle. Ima play it again and again.

<Username> on 4/12/2025 at 06:39

Quote Posted by Hanover Aldercash

lmao :laff: 5 Golden Manbabies

chilling on 4/12/2025 at 10:05

Quote Posted by Garrett731

I think it's tragic that there are no plans to improve or remake any of the missions, as what you collectively produced is possibly the best stealth simulation campaign of all time. There was so much untouched creative potential with the magic and trans-dimensional themes of the last two missions: creating lootable items out of gold transmutation tables, astrological textures, elemental guardians/sentinels, Lovecraftian voids of shattered architecture and levitational platforms that tested every facet of the player's toolset and cunning, (I could go on). I'm certain that if your team ever came back with renewed creative fire, you'd produce something marvellous.

I feel like you've got to look at the creative process as a non-linear curve. Even if the team were to put a few more years of effort into improving (however that may be defined) or even remaking the missions, I don't think it would produce something that would be fulfilling to play, let alone create. Sure, lots of creators (not limited to FMs but media in general) have That One Project To Which They Keep Returning™, but going back to something you consider finished is a grueling task; if your heart isn't in it, then why bother?

However, don't get me wrong; I don't disagree with your assessment of untapped potential. But I simply believe that these seeds will grow into new and exciting forms in future endeavours of the team's members, and from other authors as well. And if your concern is that we simply won't see anything similar with such a high production value ever again, and therefore it should be made even better, then I don't really know what to say. It might be the case, or it might not, who knows? TBP contains some of my favorite levels ever made (not just for Thief, but exploration/sandbox in general), but I consider the influx of new taffers due to it the greatest boon.

Quote Posted by skacky

Also, ratings are to be taken with grains of salt naturally, but Arcane Sanctum is one of the highest rated missions in the campaign on Thief Guild so I'm not entirely sure where you get the idea that most people find it disappointing.

Quote Posted by skacky

That's exactly what happened to Arcane Sanctum. At one point we had to sit down and think of whether this or that made for a better experience. Believe me, all that stuff regarding spellcasting or transmutation or potion-brewing would've made for a lesser mission, and one that was at odds with the campaign as a whole. We did not want to suddenly turn Hume into a spellcaster or being able to use complicated magical formulae because that's not who he is.

And for what it's worth, I'm glad Arcane Sanctum turned out the way it did :D

Garrett731 on 4/12/2025 at 13:45

Quote Posted by chilling

Thanks for your reply, and I can appreciate your more future-focused perspective.

No, that isn't my concern, but untapped potential is tragic nonetheless. Perhaps a totally separate unlockable or secret mission would be a good compromise (I suggested this earlier). This way, the authors could explore the wonderful ideas they had to abandon without the gruelling task of exhuming the TBP.

Still, if it's not to be, I wish them all the best.

I'm glad you liked Arcane Sanctum. Where Old Faces Face is my personal favourite; I find the aesthetics and architecture fascinating.

chilling on 4/12/2025 at 15:02

Quote Posted by Garrett731

Thanks for your reply, and I can appreciate your more future-focused perspective.

No, that isn't my concern, but untapped potential is tragic nonetheless. Perhaps a separate unlockable or secret mission would be a good compromise (I suggested this earlier). This way, the authors could explore the wonderful ideas they had to abandon over the course of development without altering or addressing the TBP.

Still, if it's not to be, I wish them all the best.

I'm glad you liked Arcane Sanctum. Where Old Faces Face is my personal favourite; I find the aesthetics and architecture fascinating.

Hell yeah, Where Old Faces Face is an instant classic and refined to the point of perfection. Though that's the one which left me longing for more, wishing the team had just pushed it even further yet; but I realize that even if it would've improved the mission for me (which I can't say), there's a large chance that other people wouldn't feel the same way and the mission would've turned out worse if I had had the final say :cheeky:

I think it's reasonable to conclude that this topic is too subjective for productive discussion, and even though I have a few grievances of my own with The Black Parade, I'll go out on a limb and say the team has delivered the best possible version which was realistically achievable, and to this day it's mindblowing to me that it even manages to exist. That it sounds like I'm white knighting is not lost on me :cheeky: I truly do share some of your feelings in general, although I like to view (and perhaps express) them in a different light.

Life is getting in the way of me formulating what I initially had meant to say, so I'll sadly have cut it short without getting to the meat and potatoes.

Garrett731 on 4/12/2025 at 15:05

Quote Posted by chilling

Well, you seem very sweet, so feel free to PM me if you ever feel so inclined, as I'd be interested to know your thoughts.

Take care for now.