Goldmoon Dawn on 1/2/2002 at 17:15
I think we've allowed the obvious to elude us for a while.
Constantine/Trickster at one point actually WAS a Keeper. They cast him out for the obvious reasons ones of power cast out a fellow power-holder. Greed, deception, lust, TRICKERY!
Thief: The Dark Project was The Trickster's turn at revenge.
EDIT ~ It's all too sad that LGS won't be on hand to create Thief III. I doubt anyone else will call up sufficient venom to carry such a series. We shall see.
Forsythe on 1/2/2002 at 18:42
Hrm... okay, 1st off, assuming that Constantine the Trickster was a Keeper is... well, it's not feasible. The Trickster is a primordial thing, hearkening back to the dawn of ages when humans huddled around small fires and feared the night. There's simply no way that he could've been a Keeper.
Now... my personal theory was that, in addition to Constantine's weakened state due to being in the City (which can be verified, as Viktoria had the same issue), I suspect that the Builderites stripped him of not only the Eye, but probably a good measure of his power as well.
As to whether or not he knew of the Keepers, it was my impression that he still thought of humans as you or I think of pets. Easily manipulated, usually breaking <u>something</u>, and occasionally useful. Noticing that this one group of humans skulked in shadows and kept secrets would've been beneath his notice. They would've had to be in direct opposition to make him notice them.
He did notice the Builderites, but the reason wasn't because they built things - at that stage, it probably just annoyed him. It requires some sophistication to make fire, after all, and he didn't seem to mind humans having fire. The reason he noticed them was because they were no longer afraid of the dark nor of himself like they used to be. They ultimately drew his ire not because of what they built but because they detracted from other humans' worship of himself. Come to think of it, that probably cut down on his power as well.
Oh, and IMO the "pridefully chosen pawn" bit refers to the fact that he could've chosen someone less skillful that then couldn't have defeated him. Instead, he decided (pridefully) that manipulating and then betraying a master thief would be amusing.
Pointdexter43 on 1/2/2002 at 20:00
Quote:
Originally posted by Burt Since he is a God, I will just assume he did.
-Burt Not nececarly. Some of the Gods in myths and legends didn't know anything. And if we go by that theory, if the trickster
did know about Garrett and him being connected with the keepers, why didn't he stop them?
-Pointy
Diceman on 2/2/2002 at 00:20
Quote:
Be a bit careful with how you swing those "our's" around...
Good point. I meant that The Builder is roughly equivalent to God, as Christians, Muslims, and Jews think of Him. The Trickster is like an old Greek or Roman god (in fact, he seems to be modeled after Pan.)
PCommish on 2/2/2002 at 05:40
I don't think we actually know enough about the Builder to be able to find an equivalent in our world. We know he is worshipped by the Hammerites, and Mechanists, but we don't know that they treat him the same way as Jews, Muslims, or Christians treat God. They invoke his name to shoot magic at intruders. They also only mention him while being attacked, or offering general praise. So, it can't be assumed that the Builder is equivalent to any god in our world without knowing more about his nature.
BioDroid on 2/2/2002 at 07:13
When one looks across cultures, especially polytheistic ones. You'll notice that they are really one dimensional reflections of certain, human traits. In many ways they were like the mortals who worshipped them. They were prideful, foolish, vain, stupid, clumsy, you name it. They were hardly omniscient, and many myths have them being outsmarted by mortal men and other gods. Many of them could be killed by mortal means. Nothing like the god of Christianity.
The Trickster falls into that catagory rather nicely. To me, he's rather reminiscient of Loki in the Norse religion (especially when you consider the name Trickster) Loki was fond of assuming other shapes, and represented chaos, much as this Trickster does.
All that aside, I don't believe he knew of the Keepers, nor even cared. Somoneelse mentioned that he had another failing, typical of polytheistic god...hubris. This trait alone tells me that, even if he had heard of them, he wouldn't have cared either way. His worshipers were the "pagans" who resided in the wood.
His beef was with the Hammarites who had defeated him before. Perhaps the Eye was his vessel of power (ala Thor's Hammer) and the Hammarites took that away from him, stripping him of his power. That's why the eye was so important to him.
On an interesting side note. In Thief II, Victoria refers to the Trickster as "a friend." Not a diety or lord. Would that make her a goddess as well? Perhaps a minor one?
*Zaccheus* on 3/2/2002 at 00:40
The eye new about the Keepers, at least
after the Keepers locked it into the cathedral (as it mentions the Keepers when you listen to it through the window in THC -
Eye01.wav).
But it is clear that the Keepers are (or at least were) not generally known about:
Quote:
From the game (THC):"Keeper Lukas,
We have received word of your fears, and we understand and indeed share them. We did not lightly take the decision to involve ourselves in this matter. However, we believe that we were compelled to act. Were the Trickster not opposed, he could bring destruction upon the entire city, and upon us as well. We have endeavored to conceal our efforts as best we can. I can only hope that we have been successful.
Yours in knowledge,
Keeper Andrus"
and"Keeper Andrus,
We are relieved to hear that you have successfully contained the destruction. It was for just such a contingency that the Elemental Wards have been saved these many years, and we support your decision to use them now, as the peril that you have described is grave indeed. We urge you to hide the Talismans with great care, as their discovery could lead to another such catastrophe. We worry also that your actions have exposed the truth of our existence to the world, which we must not allow.
Yours in knowledge,
Keeper Lukas"
I also find it interesting that in between "Strange Bedfellows" and "The Maw", the Hammerites could booby-trap the eye so that it would kill their arche enemy.
The Builder is indeed a very clear reference to the Christian concept of God. The trickster is actually also quite similar to the Christian idea that the devil is a being with limited powers and not a god.
pad_illa on 4/2/2002 at 04:28
WEll you see what I actually believe it to be is the question of the relativity of the Hammerites to teh Pagans. For instance, we are over 50% sure that he former group does have the knowledge in question. However, due to the fact that their rivals, the latter do have spy networks implanted throughout the city as shown by T2. So since the preceding was true, wouldn't they eventually uncover the truth of the keepers and thus pass it along to COnstantine?
BWA! such falacic thought! I hate being such a fan of Descartes. Blast!
This only works on the assumption that the Pagans still had agents implanted during the Dark Project BEFORE they were directly threatened as they were during The Metal Age when Truart was after them.....................:tsktsk: :tsktsk:
Forsythe on 5/2/2002 at 00:47
Hmm.. no offence, pad_illa, but your grammar & spelling made it somewhat difficult to comprehend your post the 1st time through; might I reccommend proof-reading a touch more? If I read you right though, you suggested that the Pagans might know of the Keepers because they have spies that might garner the knowledge from the Hammerites?
The Pagans' spies were, from what I could tell, common folk on the streets, gathering rumors and gossip. On the other hand, only a select few Hammeries (likely the high priests) knew of the Keepers' existence, and they wouldn't be likely to speak of them - who knows when one might be listening, after all? Further, the Keepers' very existence as untouchables and unknowables is likely a thorn in the "we protect the city" mentality of the Hammers, after all... and the less spoken of, the less their unpleasant memory impinges upon the mind.
mr_luc on 5/2/2002 at 03:12
I have no doubt that the Keepers were unknown to the Trickster, except that he knew perhaps that some indeterminate other force was aiding the Hammers against him, even though that is not stated; I just feel that at the most, that's what he would have known.
However, the Hammers are an entirely other matter. It's almost certain that at one point certain ones among them knew of the Keepers -- or, at least, of one Keeper, Andrus. The point being, they had dealings with one Keeper, and only very limited dealings. So only the few that had that knowledge would be in a position even to make guesses at the nature of the Keepers, and future generations of Hammers would likely know even less.
Therefore, it is possible that some vague whispered stories exist in the City that might approach the truth -- but unlikely, however, that anyone would have concrete knowledge.
