Digging Deep; The little things in Thief you never quite accepted...

TheGrimSmile on 5/7/2008 at 16:06

I know many who would say it's a terrible idea to dig too deep into game's inner workings, passing it as "just a game". However, I feel Thief is thought out more (and then rationalized by the fanatics here at ttlg), and becomes more realistic in a sense.

So, this is just a way to get me to think more. Because games are fun, and thinking is useful, so thinking and games must be useful fun!

First off, how do the Pagans get off holding two sections of the City? The guards seem to have a mutual relationship with them, but surely they would have protest to a vine growing through their roof from the Pagan neighbors. If you decided to plant the tree in TDS, then you know that it grows a good bit throughout the game. It is easy to presume this tree could grow a fair bit into the city.

Also, there is always the fact of Pagans living in the well/sewers below the City. Somewhat troublesome to have fish bones in your water. ("I didn't know the well water came with ice cubes now! Oh, wait...")

There is the fact that Diane can control peoples minds to some extent, but the whole city's streatching it. Not like they're hidden, within the City, either.

What was the area behind that statue before it was Pagan territory?

Gambit on 5/7/2008 at 17:48

Quote:

The guards seem to have a mutual relationship with them

Well, they can bribe the guards or they can have high ranking guards protecting them. In fact in TMA there was a pagan officer who was trying to protect all pagans from Citywatch trouble

Quote:

Pagans living in the well/sewers below the City

Quite a normal place to live for the persecuted "scum" of the city. Imagine it as a "Thieves underway", where everyone goes when the law is getting hard. You can even find crazy singers if you look hard. :thumb:

TheGrimSmile on 5/7/2008 at 18:07

Oh yeah, all that with Mosely and stuff...

However, in TDS, the pagans are still in the city, and I'm pretty sure that Mosely's influence couldn't go so far as taking out chumks of a city and filling them with dirt.

Well, I would be concerned to find people living in the sewers. It's not so much that they're down there, but the fact that it's like an underground village. People live down there and grow walking trees. That's a little worrisome..

Gambit on 6/7/2008 at 23:15

Since we are talking pagans...

I always wondered where they were during TDP.
They existed as a faction during TDP, but you would only know about them because of the introductory phrases that started each mission, and because of some readables. They were never "seen".

So were they aware of the Dark Project ? Did they have any play at the return of the Trickster ?

Peanuckle on 7/7/2008 at 03:13

Quote Posted by Gambit

I imagine they had been briefed by the Trickster's minions, or by him. After all, his human servants would be able to go places and do things that his minions wouldn't be able to. They were probably not seen because they were either in disguise as normal civilians, or just outside the city altogether.

As for getting away with living in the city, I'm not so sure. I would imagine the guards are terrified of the idea of evicting the pagans by force. No-one wants to face down a treebeast. Also, the Keepers probably worked 24/7 to keep the balance, they probably pull all kinds of strings to keep the status quo.

TheGrimSmile on 7/7/2008 at 18:41

Quote Posted by Gambit

Adding to Peaknuckle, it could be that Mosely (if she was in the guard?) was keeping their cover.

Or, they could have been living peacefully in their village. It's possible that the only reason they showed up in TMA is because the Mechanists came and killed them, angering the faction.

Beleg Cúthalion on 7/7/2008 at 19:49

I believe except for the Hammerites/spin-offs, Keepers and a few other involved minds no one really knew about the threat that the Pagans posed. I think they were considered as a kind of organized/suburb low-life class which wasn't necessarily more dangerous than smugglers or the City wardens.

I always try to find similarities from the real history; the Hammerites are quite a problem because they appear to be the only order for the Builder's religion (as if the Knights Templar were the only order for Christendom), but ignoring this fact for a while I think this could be compared to the situation in Outremer during the crusades: Different factions/ethnics that do not really like each other, but peace is usually kept. However, some camps see things differently, see (or want to see) greater threats and so start campaigns at one point.

Digital Nightfall on 8/7/2008 at 13:26

Things in the Thief plots I never quite accepted.

* Garrett and Viktoria team up. Garrett cares about her. (T2)
* The Keepers are revealed, at long last, to be a band of complete insufferable buffoons. (TDS)
* Gorman Truart turned out to be such a weak, forgettable, throwaway plot-devicey villain. (T2)
* Garrett somehow finds his way into the Maw of Chaos. (T)
* Modern human Pagans all talk just like the "ancient phrases" and beast-men. (TDS)

That's a start. :thumb:

EZ-52 on 8/7/2008 at 21:24

Not really plot releated, But one thing I could never accept, in Thief 1 & 2, all the swordsmen were right-handed.

Surely there would be one left-handed swordsman somewhere! ;) :cheeky:

Muzman on 9/7/2008 at 01:08

Quote Posted by Digital Nightfall

Things in the Thief plots I never quite accepted.

* Garrett somehow finds his way into the Maw of Chaos. (T)

I've always assumed the Hammerites basically take him and show him the way (not that there's anything to indicate such). I've also wondered how he gets out again :weird: