Digging Deep; The little things in Thief you never quite accepted...

Knock on 24/7/2008 at 16:25

What I never liked was the fact that despite countless times of entering mansions and castles without any intelligence whatsoever (a good example is Constantine's manor. Ramirez too.) Garrett still felt he needed to gather intelligence for the Masks mission in TMA. It made no sense!

Also, the fact that we never heard anything more about the Mechanists in TDS. Did the order just die out? What about all the ex-hammers? did they go back to being hammerites? There seems to be no shortage of them in DS. Presumably places like Angelwatch and Soulforge (Not forgetting the countless seminaries) would still be standing, so what became of them? We're talking about gigantic buildings here. It's not as if the Baron would just bulldoze them.
Speaking of which, what's the story with the Baron? I think it's mentioned in TMA that he's on conquest somewhere. Is the city at war with another state? If so, wouldn't the effects of this be felt in the city? It's as if the creators just felt that it wasn't relevant to the story. Whereas surely the Keepers would have a role to play in the War, perhaps trying to 'Keep the Balance' as they like to do.

Beleg Cúthalion on 24/7/2008 at 19:06

The Mechanists and their downfall are mentioned in TDS, as the war and it's effects are discussed by two noblemen (?) in Ambush!. Concerning the City's surroundings, you better don't talk about it since it could abolish the Keeper's purpose completely. Just imagine what would happen if the City was attacked at large scale: Either the Keepers would have to take sides with it to preserve their existence (which would override their concept of balance) or they would take the risk of being destroyed (although I'm aware of the fact that a large-scale destruction of The City would be quite unlikely).

Solabusca on 29/7/2008 at 23:17

Quote Posted by Knock

Well, in most of those cases, the 'intelligence-gathering' is done out of sight. How else do you think Garrett gets his maps and whatnot? Bribery, intelligence-gathering, and PROBABLY 'casing a joint'.

Quote:

Also, the fact that we never heard anything more about the Mechanists in TDS. Did the order just die out? What about all the ex-hammers? did they go back to being hammerites? There seems to be no shortage of them in DS. Presumably places like Angelwatch and Soulforge (Not forgetting the countless seminaries) would still be standing, so what became of them? We're talking about gigantic buildings here. It's not as if the Baron would just bulldoze them.

There is reference to that faction in TDS - specifically, there are notes in both the Hammerite missions, references made in the Keeper compound, and a note hidden away in the Docks.

Secondly, the Mechanists took over a number of Hammerite buildings during their rise to power - rather like a hostile takeover. After the fall, most of those would have reverted back to Hammerite-control. Destruction of some of the large structures is possible, but we really don't see enough of the East side of the City in TDS to make a judgement.

Quote:

Speaking of which, what's the story with the Baron? I think it's mentioned in TMA that he's on conquest somewhere. Is the city at war with another state? If so, wouldn't the effects of this be felt in the city? It's as if the creators just felt that it wasn't relevant to the story. Whereas surely the Keepers would have a role to play in the War, perhaps trying to 'Keep the Balance' as they like to do.

The Baron is off leading a war against Blackbrook. There is a broken Hammerite conversation included in TDP/TG that references the (impending/ongoing) war in Blackbrook, as well as the much more apparent references in TMA. One of the side effects of said war seems to be the increase of women in the police ranks and (for example) in the ranks of the Mechanists.

While there are a scant few references to the Baron in TDS, it seems pretty apparent that there has been a break in the war - if I were to wager, I'd suggest that the Baron was forced to return home in the wake of the Metal Age fiasco.

Finally: Why would the Keepers be involved in a war outside the City? It seems pretty apparent that their bailiwick is the City itself; they don't tend to try and steer world events beyond the City and it's environs.

Muzman on 31/7/2008 at 23:11

Can someone remind me how it is Karras knows to expect Garrett in Life of the Party?.
I dunno if I missed something but that's always struck me as the writers being unable to resist corn more than anything else.

Gambit on 1/8/2008 at 00:03

You make a party and you invite the richest nobles in town. The least you can expect is a visit from a master thief.

Muzman on 1/8/2008 at 00:29

Actually no: all the people who aren't home can expect a visit from the master thief.
Seriously, was there ever any sensible explanation for it?

nicked on 1/8/2008 at 11:31

Viktoria had her spy network - Karrass has access to the City watch informants' info plus may have his own spies. Also, don't forget - he didn't know Garrett was coming. He just took steps in case Garrett did turn up. If Garrett hadn't broken into his office, no-one would have heard the 7th viktrola message.

Springheel on 1/8/2008 at 22:55

Things I found off-putting:

1. One rope arrow is worth more than a typical gold vase.

2. The Kurshok have "legends" about an above-ground world, and mock the one member of their society who believes in it. Yet they live barely twenty meters from the docks of the largest city in the world.

3. Nobles decide it's a good idea to guard their valuable antiques with semi-intelligent robots that shoot *exploding bombs*.

4. Garrett takes missions to *help* people, even when there's nothing in it for him.

5. The city has existed for at least 1000 years. Pagans are STILL upset about it.

Muzman on 1/8/2008 at 23:49

I'm not a big fan of the idea that Karras just leaves the thing in there on the off chance that Garrett might break in (and get as far as his office), or that Garrett and the Pagans wouldn't react in a huge way to something like that.
He went in on Viktoria's intel, and you can't get a more secret conspiracy than those two, but he walks right into an apparent set up.
Garrett should flip for trusting her information and burn the whole alliance.
Viktoria's network has a gigantic leak and would have to be stripped bare, while all current operations and any info they yield is now suspect and highly dangerous.
We're used to forgiving the weird plot wrinkles in T2, but that's one of the most difficult for me. It's too big a deal to not be addressed in some way by the narrative. It's quite a shock for the player but our super smart, super secret heroes don't think it rates a mention.
(I think they, the designers, just couldn't help themselves and didn't think it through)

nicked on 2/8/2008 at 08:22

Karras knew of Garrett, he made his eye and he's been trying to have him killed for most of the plot. He knows about Viktoria - mechanists found their way into the maw after all - I doubt they attacked Beck o the wills as just a random massacre. He's having a party in which he's engaging in a crucial part of his plan (the distribution of the servants) and inviting rich nobles. He's also an insane genius. I'd have found it more unbelievable if he hadn't figured out Garrett was coming.