PigLick on 21/2/2012 at 18:03
you cant reason with a 6 year old, if they have their back up(tantrum). Kids dont really listen too much to what you say anyway.
scarykitties on 21/2/2012 at 18:17
Quote Posted by DDL
Unquestioning respect for authority is brainless. Question everything. If it's a sensible idea, generally it will hold up to questioning. If it's stupid, it won't. Sensible ideas should probably be followed, stupid ones shouldn't.
I never said to respect authority unquestioningly, did I?
Quote Posted by DDL
Conflating "not being dull" with "OMG SO MUCH MURDER AND RAPE YAY" is perhaps the most ludicrous bit of hyperbole I've seen today, and I've been reading
science papers.
Well, when you put words in my mouth, then yes. Hyperbole happens.
What I
said (in not so many words) is that it's important for a society to have a strong enough moral backing that they don't depend on laws to deter them from criminal acts. I didn't say that dullness equals rape or anything along those lines.
Quote Posted by DDL
The trick, fundamentally, is to
teach children, not simply punish them. Don't hit them because they were acting like a dick in the checkout line, point out to them exactly what a dick they're being, and how much they're irritating all the other people. By all means combine this with removal of privileges, but fundamentally, you're not trying to associate
obedience with
fear, you're trying to associate
not being a dick with
appropriate social behaviour.
Yes, I know. I never said that the trick was to
punish children just for the hell of it. What I've been saying all along now is that some children may need physical deterrence in order to learn. And I have been saying all along that punishment should be set carefully and not overblown. Defiance in children is when physical punishment (by which I mean slapping them on the ass) is necessary. Accidents, etc. aren't reasons for physical punishment.
Quote Posted by DDL
Unless you're on the internet, of course. Anarchy YAY :joke:
Did you even read my explanation for why I believe what I believe? Because if you did, you didn't address it at all.
In my experience and from what I have seen, physical punishment seems to bring positive results if used effectively, at the appropriate times, and when administered by a loving parent--not a pissed, angry, drunk parent who hates his kids and just wants his life back. If you disagree, then you disagree. If you want to claim that I'm
wrong, then offer some facts supporting your argument, like a psychological paper about the futility of physical punishment and the positive results of strictly non-physical punishments.
Chimpy Chompy on 21/2/2012 at 18:45
I'm a bit lost, you seem to be advocating fear of punishment as a means for instilling morals in people so that they don't need rules? I don't think that logically follows.
Also you can't really breeze in with a cool-story-bro anecdote then go demanding science from DDL.
nickie on 21/2/2012 at 19:21
Quote Posted by DDL
Generally speaking, teenagers will get up to
all kinds of shit when you're not looking . . .
Quite. And in my experience of two, now adult, children (one of each flavour) is that the best thing you can do for them is make it possible for them to come to you (because they're not afraid of you) when trouble arises rather than go elsewhere and really have everything go tits up.
Kolya on 21/2/2012 at 20:55
I'm not judging every parent who ever slapped their child in a tantrum, but it should be clear that this isn't any means of education. When it happens regularly it's a sign that the parent doesn't know enough adequate ways to deal with their child. In that case they should seek professional help.
However it is never a sign of an especially mean child, as scarykitties suggested.
Quote Posted by scarykitties
Some children are defiant enough to not regard their parents without the use of some kind of physical negative reinforcement (spanking, for instance)
If you start blaming your child for your own inability to deal with it in nonviolent ways, then that's child abuse and that's your fault, not your child's. Here in Germany children have a (
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_%C3%84chtung_von_Gewalt_in_der_Erziehung) right on nonviolent education. I don't think that law's been made solely by child free people. I don't think German children are all angels either.
I can hardly wait for the faction who will justify their own violence against minors with the bad education they received themselves. ("Never did me any harm").
heywood on 21/2/2012 at 22:31
ITT: people speaking as if children are all the same and behavioral outcomes are solely a function of parenting.
Theoretical arguments about parenting hypothetical children are overridden by the practical need for a tool which works for a given child and situation. Parents need a shed full of tools to raise real children.
jay pettitt on 22/2/2012 at 01:03
And that tool is a gun hat.
demagogue on 22/2/2012 at 01:11
If you think about it, the whole "debate" isn't really about what's the best kind of parenting anyway but class. It's either blue-state people saying, "lol, red-state people even use guns to parent their kids, and his values are completely out of whack"; and red-state people coming to his semi-defense, maybe not about what he did exactly, he could have gone overboard, but that "at least he has the right values at heart and the problem here isn't the gun but what to do about kids this entitled & disrespectful".
Cf. this graphic on the "Family" part of each side: (
http://i43.tinypic.com/wrezh1.gif)
I think it captures in a nutshell most of what's going on with the discussion on this video.
Kolya on 22/2/2012 at 01:58
In other words left is where the heart is. :D
heywood on 22/2/2012 at 02:17
I hate the false dichotomy that's the basis for so much of American politics. If we can reduce everyone's view to one of two stereotypes, what's the need for actual discourse? Next thread, we can skip the long replies and just respond with "Blue state" or "Red state".
