Petike the Taffer on 15/3/2009 at 10:49
As said in the title, this is only a little speculation based on a few inditions here and there.
It only concerns the TDS Hammers.
While playing the third game, you can notice several paintings with people clad in scarlet/bloody red robes and other ceremonial clothes. The colours are exactly identical, and the clothes are tailored very similarly. At least 4 of these paintings show partly armored men, all of them obviously Hammerites. But there's also a painting of a "lady in red" (quite a good looking lass :cheeky: :ebil: ;)), clad in the same colour as the four knightly chaps, her clothes having elements very similiar to their's. She wears a peculiar hat somewhat similiar to a more stylish flat cap or beret.
On the streets of the City in TDS, you pretty frequently meet women in the same red clothes worn by the aforementioned gal from the painting (but lacking her "beret", or whatever it is). Lots of these appear in front of the main gate to St. Edgar's Church.
Ziemanskye also created a TDS FM called "Impurities in the Mix", where you can meet a woman dressed exactly like the one from the painting (including the funny hat). If I remember well, she kept scouting a stairway with a drawn sword, apparently frustrated by something. She also didn't mind my presence at all, except for telling me to keep my distance. Humpf... :p :sly:
Are these hints, that Hammerites have a small, but nonetheless existing female branch of their order ?
The only explanation I can think of, is :
After the fall of the Mechanists, the Hammers regained their reputation and status and started returning most of the things to the pre-mechanist status quo. But not everything that happened could be forced out of memory or handwawed away : Some of the more useful and harmless Mechanist tech survived here and there, usualy preserved in museums or important institutions. The Hammers also had to undertake some smaller reforms in their church, in an attempt to regain former followers and appeal more to the new ones. Maybe some of this effort included changing the rules of the order, so both sexes could now join the Hammers, similiar to the Mechanists.
So, what do you think ? Is there really some sort of Pious and Most Modest Sisterhood of the Builder (:cheeky:) in the later parts of the Thief timeline ?
Petike the Taffer on 15/3/2009 at 12:25
Yep, that's her. :cool:
I forgot to mention that Ziemanskye's Hammerite FM featured only the paintings with the people in red (the more and less obvious Hammerites and this hypothetical Hammer "nun") - as if he was trying to suggest the whole idea. But we'll apparently have to ask him personally, if he meant the whole thing deliberately (including the female NPC with the "beret"). ;)
Digital Nightfall on 15/3/2009 at 12:32
All speculation aside, you do realise that her clothing doesn't look anything like a nun. She's a noblewoman.
But don't let that stop you. Carry on.
Petike the Taffer on 15/3/2009 at 13:10
Quote Posted by Digital Nightfall
All speculation aside, you do realise that her clothing doesn't look anything like a nun. She's a noblewoman.
But don't let that stop you. Carry on.
Well, who said that nuns look identical to our real world ones in Garrett's world ? :p But yeah, it's more possible she's just some noble woman. Who knows ?
Herr_Garrett on 15/3/2009 at 13:47
Quote Posted by Petike the Taffer
But yeah, it's more possible she's just some noble woman. Who knows ?
Why, the Builder, of course. :p
ManicMan on 15/3/2009 at 14:27
it does look more like a noble women to me.. yes, you said this is about DS not the first two, but taking all history in, it don't think such a turn around of ideas to let in females to work as 'equals' would have happened that fast. I know Nuns aren't equal but the Hammers seam to work in such a way as to have little help from those out side of the order. Putting me in mind of many monks you can still get who plow their own fields, cook their own foods, make (and sell) their own wines etc.... though i can't quite remember if i saw any non-hammers in a hammer area in TDS... That and the Hammers are quite a.... aggestive order on a whole...
Meisterdieb on 15/3/2009 at 14:53
I'm also convinced that mysterious lady is a noblewoman.
I don't think we ever see any picture of a female in a Hammer place?
Are there even any female saints?
But since we're speculationg about the possibility of Nuns:
Given the recent upheavals the Hammerite order has seen (first, being attacked by the Trickster, and then loosing many members to the heretics) it wouldn't be too far-fetched for the Hammers to rethink their ways and traditions.
But even if the Hammers should suddenly allow women into their order, why would they simply allow the heretics in? The Hammers seem more likely to kill such deviants. If they's allow them back in, it wouldn't be after some SERIOUS repentance (probably some spell in Cragscleft).
Granted, a nunnery would be a simple way to 1) allow women into the order without giving them much(if any) influence 2) having them repent by constantly praying or making hammers 3) but still pretty much ahving them out of the way and without any say in the order.
OTOH, TDS pretty much turned back the hands of time on the equal rights movement. While we had women as guards in the Watch and in the Mechanists temple, in TDS it's back to an all male team.
Petike the Taffer on 15/3/2009 at 15:22
Quote Posted by Meisterdieb
OTOH, TDS pretty much turned back the hands of time on the equal rights movement. While we had women as guards in the Watch and in the Mechanists temple, in TDS it's back to an all male team.
Yes, but TDS also had female thieves/thugs and Pagan guards... ;)
Meisterdieb on 15/3/2009 at 16:16
True, but then again the pagans seemed to be equal rights proponenst in TMA already (at least that's what I get from snippets in Trail of Blood and the following cutscene - there seem to be priestesses at least.
Regarding the female thieves/thugs: yeah forgot about them.
But since being a thug/ thief is alread breaking the law, the minor infraction of being a woman in a "man's job" doesn't really make it any worse.
If a thief gets caught he gets branded or has his hands cut of (or has to eat "the tongues of the liars" if the hammers get him/her) and that's probably worse than what you get for having the wrong job which would probably be being put into the pillory.
