Do not shorten Deus Ex 2

Turrican on 20/1/2002 at 16:13

Hi to all Deus Ex 2 anticipators!

I am a big Deus Ex fan and of all first-person 3D games Warren Spector had his hands on. I agree totally with his approach for creating believable, realistic 3D enviroments as he stated in various interviews and I also think that his philosophy represents the future of gaming. In this interview,however, he states that most people don't complete the games they own. He's right, but the main reason for it is that most games lack quality, and it's not because the games are too long. If there's quality, then everybody wants to get the biggest possible quantity. That applies not only for games. Deus Ex was indeed a big game, but I cannot imagine someone who played Deus Ex and critized it for being too long. If that's the case then maybe because he/she isn't a fan of immersive 3D games anyway. Making Deus Ex 2 shorter than it should be,possibly means a lower degree of story elements, quests or sub-quests. That would be really sad because that was one of the strongest features of Deus Ex.

I hope that other fans support my opinion, so that Warren and his team give up their plan of shortening Deus Ex 2.

[ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Turrican ]

Bruny on 20/1/2002 at 18:21

Here here Turrican! (or is it hear hear?) I was unbelievably distressed when I read that in the interview. That they were going to deliberately make Deus Ex shorter. After that interview I recalled all the games I never finished. Starcraft and Unreal Tournament were the only ones I could think of that I loved (and UT doesn't count). I didn't finish Starcraft because I got bored or it was a bad game, it just got really hard and I wasn't in the mood at the time to really buckle down and beat it. I'll probably play it again sometime soon. There are lots of reasons people don't finish games besides the game becoming long, tedious or boring.

I have to admit I fail to understand Warren's logic in this. I don't see how changing the game so that more people will finish it makes it a better game. Is it a matter of pride? Wanting everybody to see every aspect of their wonderful work? Spending bocoo bucks on the ending sequences and not wanting it to go to waste?

Okay, maybe some games, some story lines benefit from a tighter, more compact experience. Deus Ex isn't one of those games. It's not the type of game where the player is spoon fed a plot and led along a storyline until the end. Deus Ex is an experience. The player enters a world and lives there. They don't just watch the story, they contribute to it.

I can think of only three reasons why a developer would shorten a game like Deus Ex. With hundreds of times the polygons in the new engine comes a vastly increased development time in terms of building levels. They can't afford to make the game as long. We can discard that as Warren implied in the interview they were doing it for reasons of game quality. How about if more people finish the game it will somehow increase sales? Maybe reviews or word of mouth from people who have finished it will somehow factor into this. But again, that has nothing to do with quality.

I guess we're left with the possibility that they feel experiencing the completion of the game will make it ultimately more satisfying. I believe that's too high a price for a minimal payoff. I absolutely loved Starcraft and maybe I would have liked it even a little bit more if I had reached the end (I understand there were some interesting plot developments in the third act). But that doesn't diminish the fact that I still loved the game! By shortening Deus Ex they are absolutely diminishing the experience of tens of thousands of players just so other players will get to the end.

I remember how distressed I was in Deus Ex as I realized I was getting near the end. I didn't want the game to end. I also remember how relieved I was when I thought I was nearing the end but somebody else told me I had a long way to go yet. And to tell you the truth, personally, I thought the last levels were the weakest ones in the game. Maybe that's why so many people didn't finish it. Maybe they should concentrate instead on making the later levels even better and more compelling. So they want people to finish the game? Consider that a challenge. But don't take the easy route by making it shorter. Try something revolutionary. Try designing the story and plot and locales so that they suck the player in, the further they get into the game, the more compelling it becomes so that by the time the end is near the player is totally trapped and *must* finish it!

I'm no game developer but one thing that I've been told on more than one occasion is that you don't design a game to be replayed. You put all of your money into making it great the first time through. If gamers like to play through it again and again, that's great, but from a pure business angle it makes little sense.

We need a petition! So how do we go about setting something like that up!

Captainclone on 22/1/2002 at 06:25

I agree, Deus Ex was incredibly long, but that was the best part. Everything breathing and living, and tracing steps and taking leads on where to go and what to do. Trying different ways in and out, finding crazy new things. Like in Gas station where you rescue the daughter, my point is that point is that scene at the gas station was unneeded. But it made it all the better. So many little parts weren't needed for Deus Ex and everything could have been 100% straight forward no side quests. But I like being distracted from the plot for a minute, and busting up the pimps and gangs in Deus Ex. Again that wasnt needed, but made it better and realistic. Gives you a feel for everything. Length for games like DeusEx2 and Thief 3 = Good, very very good. As for Starcraft, BEAT IT ALREADY! That game is incredible, you will enjoy the ending scenes and the mid game cinamatics. And then buy Broodwars, crazy good game.

santaClaws on 22/1/2002 at 18:31

DX wasn't all that long in my opinion .. I tried to do everything in that game that was possible, and it still seemed short to me. But that's subjective, of course .. and, as Einstein said, everything is relative =) in comparison to the time I spend on my latin homeworks. And ..

Quote:

Originally posted by Bruny: Here here Turrican! (or is it hear hear?)<hr></blockquote> It is. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

-claw

Chade on 23/1/2002 at 06:07

Actually, I have to agree with Warren on this one. I felt that the game was especially long, and towards the end of the game I was wondering when it would eventaully finish, especially as there is no indication that you are getting close to finishing the game untill the missile silo level.

Also, if making the game slightly shorter means that they will have more time to concentrate on giving the player more choice as to how he progresses through the story, than I'm all for having a shorter game.

twisty on 23/1/2002 at 07:16

I really didn't feel like Deus Ex was too long at all. As a gamer who doesn't give up until I have fully completed a game, I think that a shorter game is a terrible idea. 

I have to agree with Bruny about the last couple of levels. While I really enjoyed them as levels in themselves (design wise), by that stage I felt that too much of the story had already been given away. When so much of the game's strength lay in the mystery and suspense of not really knowing the "truth" about what was going on, Deus Ex lost a little bit of its excitement towards the end. To my mind, they should have payed more attention to this. 

Another reason why people don't finish games, in my opinion, is because they are often forced to follow singular paths in order to complete the game. As Paul Tazzour, Randy and Warren have all claimed in earlier interviews, the player is made to try and think of the solution that the developer has made for him or her, rather than seek their own solution. In this way, I think that a culture has developed as a result of the previous frustrations of players who have found it hard to complete games due to a lack of freedom. As the Austin Ion Storm team seem to be moving in the direction of allowing high levels of freedom, I think that they can overcome some of these frustrations and, in turn, this will result in more players finishing their games. Aiming to make the game shorter, seems to me to be a step in the wrong direction.

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: twisty ]

The TimeLord on 26/1/2002 at 00:09

I think Deus Ex is the best PC Game ever, because of the very good story elements and the possibility to solve a problem with several solutions.

The length of the game was not too long and shouldn't be reduced, because this property makes the game 'alive' and every time I play it, it has new tasks and new solutions for me. I was very happy to safe the live of Paul Denton and to see him later in Hong Kong with Tracer Tong.

CU

Chiller on 30/1/2002 at 23:39

I think it would be wrong to make it short. As I understood however, it's not going to be that bad... only "a bit" shorter than the original. As I remember, Warren said something about DX1 being a little longer than they wanted it to be, so I suppose that now they're going to do it just as long as they want to.
Now I didn't think DX was too long. I do play Final Fantasy a lot (and those are LONG ;) ), and i was really pleased about the game baing longer than average. But that's because I liked it very much. On the other hand, I was playing RTC Wolfenstein these days and while I did want to finish it, I really didn't enjoy it that much, so I was actually quite relieved when I finally did it, and yeah the game is not that long (shame on me btw ;) ).
These being said, I'm still puzzled :confused: as to WHY are they doing this ????? No offense, but the reasons given are just a whole load of crap... :nono: I think this really has the potential to hurt the fans, and even those people who are going to play DX2 before DX1, and then turn to DX1 and like it better... Hey I know that only a sequel in 10 (approx... h3h3 ;) ) is better than the original, but really, there are lots of companies out there to keep the statistics alive... (in other words: why me why me why me ??? :) )

-Chiller

rhalibus on 8/2/2002 at 23:01

I believe that Warren and Co. could take 5-10 hours off the original length of DX (35 hours for me) if they devoted that time to creating more branching levels.

One of the main reasons that DX has stayed on my hard drive (other then the mods I'm making) is that I've been able to go back and find complete maps that I've missed (the NY sewers, the Smugglers Lair)...Knowing that there is no right way of progressing through a level means that you feel you can try anything and it will be rewarded in one way or another; this is the magic of Deus Ex. Shortening the total time but increasing the magic can only make the game better and more replayable...:cheeky:

SirVincealot on 10/2/2002 at 01:37

I was also quite surprised to hear this from a man who cut his teeth with Steve Jackson.

Games that "push the envelope" are certainly extremely costly to pull off - and the DEUS EX sequel certainly qualifies here.

The diheartening trend however, is to spend so much time tweaking the technology that the resulting product rates, at best, a week's entertainment. There is something seriously wrong with the current industry model when a game like Max Payne takes four years to make - the ratio of build to play falls to about 3 hours of playing time completed per year! Multiply that by employee time and one realizes that this is simply unacceptable.

Max Payne made 3D Realms and Remedy Entertainment lots of money, so from an economic standpoint, one can see that it will be many, many years before the business smartens up.

For us gamers well, as usual, we take what we can get and pretty soon learn to praise what would have garnered our scorn not very long ago. Logically, a game that offers as little gameplay as Max Payne cannot be any longer; the players might notice how threadbare the production actually is.

For the DEUS EX sequel, there is no logical explanation to make a shorter game, especially if, as we are promised, the gameplay will be improved. Better gameplay means more content, not less! I find it surprising how few people seem to understand this.

HOWEVER - the astonishing number of titles on the shelf is the death toll of this aspect of game design. Publishers very consciously want titles that will come and go as fast as possible since, as in the film industry, a hundred new products are just waiting for their shot at the coveted shelf.

SYSTEM SHOCK 2, THIEF, CIVILIZATION, OPERATION FLASHPOINT, DEUS EX, ALPHA CENTAURI, ULTIMA, DAGGERFALL - give me more content. I want big, expansive games that keep me up well into the night, last long enough to surprise or challenge me and justify the energy to learn their mechanics.

Anything less is a waste of my money, the complex machines I build to play games, and, most importantly, my time.

SirVincealot

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