zacharias on 11/12/2015 at 14:51
Quote Posted by GMDX Dev
I think Looking Glass proved to the snobs paying attention that gaming is the most advanced form of art. Games incorporates a wide array of other forms of art, then makes it all interactive. It has the most depth and the most to give of them all as it stands. Sure, gaming is still in its infancy, but it has already superseded film and such by far.
I haven't played a game that really excited me in years now, so I have some sympathy with your position. However, the
'games are a wagnerian total work of art plus interactivity ftw' thing kinda makes me chuckle.
It seems to me with a great work of art you are talking about a genius level mind together with total mastery of technique/craft side of things, to produce something mesmeric. Interactivity actually works against this in many ways, in part because it complicates things so radically and the form will of necessity be very different. With player agency the author gives up total control of the form the experience will take. It is a trade off.
GMDX Dev on 11/12/2015 at 14:58
Quote Posted by zacharias
It seems to me with a great work of art you are talking about a genius level mind together with total mastery of technique/craft side of things, to produce something mesmeric.
Yes. Do you not recognize the design significance of games like System Shock 2? Pure logical game design synergy & mastery. There's imperfections, but as you say, it's a complex art form so a touch extra forgiveness can be applied.
zacharias on 11/12/2015 at 15:23
Sure, SS2 is fantastic. LGS and early Irrational were exceptional developers; I think everyone still posting on ttlg would agree with that. With that said though, I'm not a gaming historian, so there's probably plenty of historically significant games I'm ignorant of, and I can't say what did what first.
My point was on interactivity. I think it means you can't actually compare gaming with other art forms directly in a meaningful way. Even film. Interactivity changes things too radically imo.
icemann on 11/12/2015 at 15:25
Quote Posted by GMDX Dev
Icemann: "Evolution of what came before" is Bioshock your ideal evolution of System Shock 2? It's a simplified clone of it for goodness sake. The evolution there is in the engine, which was EPIC's.
What I was talking about was not really aiming at any one game specifically. More on the broader scope of games in general, and not always specific to genre as some had knock on effects to otherwise unrelated ones.
Example: System Shock and Deus Ex - Really established that RPGs and FPS mixed can work just fine.
Evolutions/games which you can tell were definitely influenced - Borderlands, Dead Space, Fallout 3 (+ all the sequels since then), Doom 3.
I would nearly put Farcry 3 in there as well, but that feels more Assassin's Creed influenced.
Straight up FPS:
Wolfenstein 3D -> Doom 1&2, Blake Stone, Ken's Labyrinth -> Quake -> Quake 2->Quake 3 Arena, Unreal, Half-Life.
RTS:
Dune 2-> Command and Conquer, Warcraft->Red Alert, Dark Reign, C&C 2, Starcraft->Starcraft 2, Warcraft 3
With heaps missing from the above as I just put the games that sprang to mind.
If you want my opinion on Bioshock it's more a de-evolution since it reduced the amount of RPG elements (though their still there) and goes more FPS direction. Then with Infinite the RPG stuff is nearly completely gone and it's nearly a straight up FPS. I'd never call BS 1 & 2 as bad though, I had fun playing them. Infinite much less so, though I did enjoy the DLC.
GMDX Dev on 11/12/2015 at 15:31
Bioshock lost far more than just RPG systems.
Your FPS evolutionary line stopped around the year 2000, thus reinforcing my point :P
Quote:
Evolutions/games which you can tell were definitely influenced - Borderlands, Dead Space, Fallout 3 (+ all the sequels since then), Doom 3.
Mixed feelings on this. Whilst of course they all have their merits, SS2 and Deus Ex are better in most respects in my opinion. In fact they are my two favorite games that nothing in my eyes has truly challenged.
Quote Posted by zacharias
My point was on interactivity. I think it means you can't actually compare gaming with other art forms directly in a meaningful way. Even film. Interactivity changes things too radically imo.
It makes art dynamic. Adds more dimensions to it. It's the advanced art form. You can have a whole movie or book
within a game, thus potentially superseding the traditional mediums.
Manwe on 11/12/2015 at 15:31
Quote Posted by GMDX Dev
aside from your Tenchu bashing which while
somewhat valid I'm going to ignore lest we begin arguing about that next)?
Truth is, I haven't played it in over 15 years. For all I know it holds up really well, but somehow I doubt it. I used to love it as a kid but from what I remember it was considered an unplayable mess at the time of its release and was quickly rendered obsolete by MGS1's brand of stealth. Besides in my experience early ps1 games have aged terribly (especially the 3D ones). I've been trying to replay Duke Nukem: Time to Kill lately, and at best it's not fun, at worst it's painful (like I said physically because my fingers actually ache from using the D-pad and mentally because it's just so disorienting and unwieldy). I can see why I liked it as a kid. There was nothing else on the market, and it was the best technology could do. So we settled for that. Today I realize most of the enjoyment I got from these games was due to my own childish imagination running wild. These days I just see a blocky, pixelated, blurry mess of jaggies and warping textures.
PigLick on 11/12/2015 at 15:35
Your heart is in the right place but your brain is up your arse. Here is a thing, I am a huge gamer, I mean like Henke huge. What you are saying doesnt make sense. I had a whole essay ready to go but my innate laziness means FUCK THAT.
At the risk of labeling myself as some sort of DAD GAMER, you really gotta have some young people playing games to really grok whats going on. Kids dont give a shit about anything other than how fun the game is.
I am probably more "in touch" with modern gaming than ever thanks to having offspring aged between 8-17, all who use ipads, phones etc, well more than I can use them thats for sure.]
Heres the kicker - thief. thief 2, system shock, system shock 2, ultima and the underworlds, morrowind. My progeny know these games like the back of their hands. Why? cos I am a terrible parent and let them play computer games instead of going outside and getting fresh air and exercise.
icemann on 11/12/2015 at 15:38
Quote Posted by GMDX Dev
Bioshock lost far more than just RPG systems.
Your FPS evolutionary line stopped around the year 2000, thus reinforcing my point :P
It was just a quick one :p. If I'd put in all the influenced/evolutions I'd have been going all day on that post. There are also deviations which go off after certain points as well.
Since before SS2 I would nearly put Might and Magic 6 in there, since that one (and all M&M's which came afterward other than the last game) went with a optional real time mode. Which if you play it that way, is kinda FPS-ish. Though those games I would call as straight up pure RPG really.
Nowadays straight up FPS games are becoming few and far between. Most have an RPG element or two in there somewhere.
Last straight up FPS I recall playing was F.E.A.R. And even that had System Shock influences here and there.
GMDX Dev on 11/12/2015 at 15:47
Quote Posted by Manwe
Truth is, I haven't played it in over 15 years. For all I know it holds up really well, but somehow I doubt it. I used to love it as a kid but from what I remember it was considered an unplayable mess at the time of its release and was quickly rendered obsolete by MGS1's brand of stealth. Besides in my experience early ps1 games have aged terribly (especially the 3D ones). I've been trying to replay Duke Nukem: Time to Kill lately, and at best it's not fun, at worst it's painful (like I said physically because my fingers actually ache from using the D-pad and mentally because it's just so disorienting and unwieldy). I can see why I liked it as a kid. There was nothing else on the market, and it was the best technology could do. So we settled for that. Today I realize most of the enjoyment I got from these games was due to my own childish imagination running wild. These days I just see a blocky, pixelated, blurry mess of jaggies and warping textures.
Regarding both Nukem and Tenchu. You fail to see their many merits. Also, emulate them on PC man. Then you can use any control input of your choosing.
Quote Posted by "Piglick]Your heart is in the right place but your brain is up your arse. Here is a thing, I am a huge gamer, I mean like Henke huge. What you are saying doesnt make sense. I had a whole essay ready to go but my innate laziness means FUCK THAT.
At the risk of labeling myself as some sort of DAD GAMER, you really gotta have some young people playing games to really grok whats going on. Kids dont give a shit about anything other than how fun the game is.
I am probably more "in touch" with modern gaming than ever thanks to having offspring aged between 8-17, all who use ipads, phones etc, well more than I can use them thats for sure.
Heres the kicker - thief. thief 2, system shock, system shock 2, ultima and the underworlds, morrowind. My progeny know these games like the back of their hands. Why? cos I am a terrible parent and let them play computer games instead of going outside and getting fresh air and exercise.
Were you going to elaborate even a little on why you think my head is up my ass, or did you just want to rant about being a DAD GAMER :P
Your kids are going to be hyper-elitist, you've created monsters like me!
PigLick on 11/12/2015 at 15:51
I know! its something that keeps me awake at night, realizing what I have unleashed upon the world.
But then I think of Henke, and everything seems alright.
