uncadonego on 13/8/2019 at 07:18
Quote Posted by downwinder
all hail the golden child who i think is viktoria's son,hence why she went in guns blazing at soulforge
Ah!!! Very interesting!!!!:idea:
A good concept for an FM!
harley on 14/8/2019 at 02:28
I realize this thread is 9 years old, and I haven't read it in entirety, but please do release it. I don't have the time, nor the ability to make a FM so anything that comes out is a blessing in my opinion. Good or bad, its better than not having the mission to play at all. I haven't been around for 10 years or so due to starting a business, getting married, etc. but did just recently get back into thief a little bit. I remember your name but haven't looked back on your other missions due to a lack of time but memory tells me they were great missions. My thoughts is anyone that will spend the time to make a free mission, deserves the gratitude for the hard work they put in. In my opinion, with out seeing or playing it, Its already a great contribution and great mission!!!
uncadonego on 14/8/2019 at 19:55
The first mission I released was Two Fathers. Now I know technically A Thief Nonetheless came out first, but it wasn't a serious FM. I just pumped that out in 14 straight days of using my spare time as a release for the contest. I figured "what the heck" and thought it would be practice making the zip for Two Fathers.
Two Fathers isn't the first thing I worked on. My first mission was Hymenoptera Apidae. I was new at it. It was rough. It wasn't something I should release, so I didn't. I never put it past the stage of playing in Dromed. I stored it on a CD, and scrapped it, then started work on Two Fathers, which, if I remember right, I dreamed in my sleep. I started Dromeding at the fountain garden where you run into Delphos, and Dromed'ed backwards to the starting point. That's just an aside while I'm sitting here though. The point I'm making is that sometimes, you SHOULD scrap a mission. Hymenoptera Apidae never saw the light of day.
Several years later, I released Hymenoptera Apidae. I completely went from scratch, completely anew. That mission was The Power Of Suggestion. Should I have released it? Maybe not. It crashed in certain areas, even if I approached those areas walking into them backwards. I couldn't figure it out. I was forced to remove most of the sewer system and many above ground areas. This, in effect, removed many second or third access routes into the key areas of the game. Therefore the game came off open ended with no idea where to go, and strangely, at the same time, linear and claustrophobic. I sometimes think I should have scrapped this version of Hymenoptera Apidae as well, and I should have gone for a third try.
Another mission I think is appropriate to bring up here is Mixed Messages. I sent a mission file to Thorin Oakenshield and offered it to him as a starting point for him to build another mission. I would also rattle off some more buildings and send them to him to add in game. I purposely built everything I sent him to match his style. I wrote the story for him and did the voice acting for him. I heard nothing. I asked him what's up, but he had given up on it, so he sent it back to me. Same story here, it just crashed. I had to make many changes and retexture the entire mission for reasons which aren't important here. Even then, it was only 1/2 finished, and I had to do stupid stuff like make certain vegetation textures not accept rope arrows, or scrap the whole thing and re-build from scratch. What a freakshow of a mess that mission ended up being. I SHOULD have scrapped it, and re-started from scratch sometime in the future, just like I did with Hymenoptera Apidae. In fact, if there were one mission of mine I would say needed to be built completely differently, it would be Mixed Messages. It never should have seen the light of day.
Which brings me to my point. People may think I just got upset with Melan on that other thread and decided to cancel release in a huff, but this mission should not be released. I had no computer for years to Dromed on in the middle there, I know. Even putting that aside, I have hit the cell limit and managed to lower it a couple of times, only to hit the cell limit again, and it's not close to finished. I had decided to scrap this one a while ago, just like I scrapped Hymenoptera Apidae all those years ago.
I should never have started a teaser thread, it wasn't fair. I may use this mission as a starting point for something smaller later on. But you need to know, it's dead in the water. I've learned from the past. Not only that, even if I do release it, NewDark doesn't automatically make a mission built in 2008 look new. Scrapping and re-working happens in artistic endeavours often. As an example, John Lennon started work on Jealous Guy in 1968 when the White Album was being recorded. It had a different meaning and totally different lyrics back then. It was called Child of Nature originally, inspired by a lecture by the Maharishi. It ended up on the Imagine album, WAY better off for the delay and changes. Another example is the wildlife painter Robert Bateman. He scraped the head off his well known bald eagle painting THREE times and started over every time until he got it right.
This mission is dead, and it has NOTHING to do with you players being too harsh. Just trust me on this, OK?
ffox on 15/8/2019 at 10:55
I think you are being too hard on yourself about Mixed Messages. It was the first FM I ever tested and I still have fond memories.
Some of the greats such as Hit Deity, Gaylesaver, Dinksmallwood, Nightwalker and Shadow Creepr were also doing the testing and iirc they all liked the FM a lot too. Of course it wasn't perfect, but it was much better than you seem to think, particularly considering it was done 17 years ago. I still recommend it to people who like intriguing and different puzzles.
Yes, please bring out something smaller later on, but don't wait too long or I may not be around to enjoy it!
Unna Oertdottir on 15/8/2019 at 11:13
Mixed Messages was and is still great fun. I was the inspiring example for Abysses by Christine if I remember correctly (ape beast scene). So don't bury your light under a bushel. Ignore some kids.
Nightwalker on 15/8/2019 at 20:56
You know I've always been a fan of your missions! I've always had fun playing them and I'm sure I will enjoy anything you release in the future. You're always too hard on yourself and your work.
Stingm on 16/8/2019 at 03:37
I have to agree with Nightwalker and the others 100%. I have always enjoyed your missions too. I look forward to more.
Yandros on 16/8/2019 at 11:47
I also agree you are hard on yourself. It sounds like with this one, you will either need to split it into two missions or just reuse parts of it in a new mission. I for one love your missions and will play whatever you release in the future.
uncadonego on 16/8/2019 at 18:47
Unna, it's ironic you should say " light under a bushel". That just happens to be what Thorin Oakenshield said to me when I sent him some samples of my work, before I had ever released anything. However, that was in 2002, and I haven't learned to change since then, stuck in the same building rut, and it's starting to lap me and pass me.
Unna and Yandros, you will mostly know what I'm talking about.
When I was playing Lady Rowena's Home Sweet Home, I hopped onto a small balcony and into a single room. It was nothing but a cube. In the old days, cube was practically an insult. I paused in that room, looked around, and became a little upset with myself. With an awesomely selected texture, she had given the illusion of top and bottom mouldings and everything in between. Here I am in 2019 still building awnings out of brushes on grid 11, making toe mouldings, wainscott, lip mouldings, wallpaper upper section, and then ceiling mouldings up top, all on grid 11. Five brushes instead of 1. Then factor in a similar hallway meeting at a right angle. Can you see where being stuck in my old 20 year old style is getting me stuck on hitting the cell ceiling? Pillars made of a solid and two air, four of them in a room, instead of using an object. Desks built out of brushes instead of perfectly beautiful new objects. Light fixtures made of three brushes with a light object embedded within it, instead of a beautiful light from DC project, etc., etc.
So you can see how being stuck in 2002 thinking is chewing up the scenery more than William Shatner in Star Trek: The Wrath Of Khan.
I'm not too hard on myself, although I thank you for trying to give me a boost. I know if I hadn't been so "precious" about custom objects and textures like an old man chewing on his tongue, blinking too much, grumbling: "That's how we've always done it, and we liked it that way!!!Dammit!!!!", The Power of Suggestion never would have ended up so severely castrated. It's my fault. I'm not crying, it's just a fact.
No Mixed Messages duct taping the mission together this time. This time I'm admitting the patently obvious to myself ahead of time. This one isn't getting released, when I know it's crap. This one is getting a complete rebuild.
I'd rather be hard on myself before a mission release for once.
This mission is toast, and it's going through a complete teardown one piece at a time. If I get this released some day, I think I might release the playable zip I last sent to Nightwalker, so everyone can compare the two, and see for themselves exactly how being stuck in my ways painted me into a corner.
Nightwalker on 16/8/2019 at 20:47
Then we can look forward to a rebuilt one? Can't wait! I enjoyed the versions I played but I expect an updated version will be all that much better. You know where to find me if you need a tester! :)
