Nephthys on 18/11/2009 at 03:10
Quote Posted by Herr_Garrett
Apart from watching dancing zombies and it functioning as a mirror, it really is quite useless.
Oh, and it stops your fall.
:p I did the same thing.
Quote Posted by The Shroud
Guess that's one of the things TDS got right - dropping the scouting orb. The potions and flares were pretty useless too.?
I thought the potions were pretty clumsy and useless to use most of the time. Then again, I didn't realize that the Slow Fall potion would help you jump from high places without getting hurt. I was so confused with me, along with everyone chasing me, would slow down.
The flash bomb was done better in Deadly Shadows ONLY because it didn't blind you as well as whoever you were trying to blind. That, I found annoying in the first two.
The Shroud on 18/11/2009 at 04:27
Quote Posted by jtr7
Dropping it down a hole or throwing it around a corner no hand mirror could give the angle on are good uses (when one has not memorized the terrain and AI placement).
This is true. However, as has been pointed out, Thief 2 never imposed any situations on the player in which the scouting orb was that vital. I suppose that was because the devs didn't want to force the player to use the orbs, for the sake of gameplay freedom - which I can certainly respect - but the end result was that the orbs seldom got used at all, as evidenced by the responses in this thread and previous ones that have touched on this subject.
I won't speak for everyone, but when I ask myself why
I never bothered with the orbs, I think the main reason (other than the fact that they weren't that necessary during the missions) had to do with a weighing of my options in a given scenario: A. rely on my ears to time guards' approaches and departures; B. look for a safe spot to study guard patrol routes before traversing the area; C. just take a chance and hope for the best; D. resort to using one of my very limited supply of scouting orbs. Evaluating these options invariably resulted in my choosing A, B, or C, without ever getting all the way down to D. One of the first three choices always ended up either succeeding - or failing, after which I'd tend to reload a save, and by that time I already knew what to expect, which negated any need I
may have had for the orbs once again.
In short, it just never seemed to be the best option - primarily because there was always a
cost associated with that option (using up an orb that I might not get back for a while, or at all) that seemed, to me at least, not worth paying. If I'd had a mirror, on the other hand, there wouldn't have been any cost (since the mirror stays with me when I'm done using it), which I think most likely would have bumped up the appeal of that choice to at least B, or possibly even A.
Quote Posted by Emeloy
I think the main problem with the orb is simply, that the game doesn't really have a need for it.
The Guards never suspect you're comming, they can't set traps, they can't change their routes... well to be honest they are quite useless in nearly every way a guard could be. They even wear louder shoes than you do, which is quite an accomplishment in itself.
Combined with a stealthmodus, that works more like invisbility and a lean function, which let's you practically walk around a corner without being seen, just makes scouting ahead a waste of time.
Right on the money.
Quote Posted by Chade
Shoud, I don't have any particular problem with the idea of a small mirror, which would indeed serve much the same purpose as a scouting orb ... but I also don't see it as being any sort of improvement. It sounds strictly less powerfull then the scouting orb, which makes it an odd suggestion in a thread where people are complaining that they never found a use for the scouting orbs.
I do see your point, although there
is actually an upside to a mirror over a scouting orb, and that's that it stays in the player's possession - they can use it whenever they want without fear of using up their "total". At least in my case, that makes it far more appealing. I tend to be very conservative with my gear, saving it for emergencies only (despite the game's recommendation to avoid storing items in favor of using them). If I find that I can accomplish something without resorting to weapons or items, I usually go that route. I'm not saying this is how everyone should play, it's just how my personal judgment works during gameplay.
Quote Posted by kamyk
They also seem unrealistic to me. Imagine you were standing or walking somewhere, and suddenly this little metal orb was thrown into your radius of perception. Realistically speaking, I'd think a guard would react to that in some way, and they don't. Of course if they did, it would render the orbs completely useless
Exactly.
Quote Posted by Nephthys
The flash bomb was done better in Deadly Shadows ONLY because it didn't blind you as well as whoever you were trying to blind. That, I found annoying in the first two.
I actually liked that aspect in Thief 2, it required a bit of quick thinking on the player's part - toss the bomb and look away. Or you could simply drop it while fleeing, which I believe was what the devs had in mind with the flash bombs' purpose in the first place. Then of course, players discovered that rather than flee, they could just blind the guards and knock them out (often multiples at a time), and be on their merry way. Thief 1 imposed no threat or downside to using this extreme advantage, since the bombs didn't blind you then. Thief 2 added the threat of player-blindness to balance this power out a little more (not to mention it's realistic that Garrett might blind himself if he's not careful), which I feel was an improvement. TDS took that away, and I think that was a poor choice.
Chade on 18/11/2009 at 04:39
Quote Posted by The Shroud
I do see your point, although there
is actually an upside to a mirror over a scouting orb, and that's that it stays in the player's possession - they can use it whenever they want without fear of using up their "total".
I considered that, and it's not actually an advantage. If the player keeps posession of the mirror, then he must be holding it "at arms length". If he uses a scouting orb within this radius, he will be able to frob it at any time. Retrieval is basically guaranteed. So the mirror is still strictly less powerfull.
The Shroud on 18/11/2009 at 05:03
Quote Posted by Chade
I considered that, and it's not actually an advantage. If the player keeps posession of the mirror, then he must be holding it "at arms length". If he uses a scouting orb within this radius, he will be able to frob it at any time. Retrieval is basically guaranteed. So the mirror is still strictly less powerfull.
;) Good point. It really is less powerful, all things considered - although, as was mentioned, realistically a scouting orb would very likely catch someone's notice and thus ruin its appeal. This is not to say I can't imagine someone spotting a tiny mirror, but it's definitely more subtle. Also, ironically enough, if I
don't have the ability to throw my scouting-tool out of my own reach, I (speaking only for myself here) am more likely to acquaint myself with using it on a regular basis.
When you mentioned how you can drop scouting orbs right in front of you so that you can easily snatch them back, I asked myself, "Huh...that's true, why don't I ever do that?" And the answer is because I grew used to
not using scouting orbs at all, since other methods always solved my problems, one way or another. Since using the orbs for what they're best suited toward (throwing them at a distance and bouncing them off angles) means sacrificing the orbs for (potentially) a long while or perhaps permanently, other alternatives begin to appeal more to me. It's strange but true - being provided with the all-too-tempting option of throwing an orb a great distance (if I'm going to use it at all) results in my using them even
less.
Chade on 18/11/2009 at 05:14
Well, you can already lean around corners, which pretty much takes care of the "look around from within arms length" niche. I don't see much point in any "out of body vision" tool that is restricted to such a short radius.
So IMO, the main power would actually come dropping the mirror somewhere and then looking at it as you walked around, which would mean you'd need to be able to pick it up again. ;)
Also, it should totally be a mirror ball ...
The Shroud on 18/11/2009 at 06:40
Quote Posted by Chade
Well, you can already lean around corners, which pretty much takes care of the "look around from within arms length" niche.
Very true - but when you think about it, leaning around really should expose you a lot more than it does, making it not necessarily the best option all the time.
Quote Posted by Chade
I don't see much point in any "out of body vision" tool that is restricted to such a short radius.
So IMO, the main power would actually come dropping the mirror somewhere and then looking at it as you walked around, which would mean you'd need to be able to pick it up again. ;)
That's not such a bad idea really - I mean, if a guard finds a mirror lying on the ground or propped against a wall, he might wonder a bit, but he probably won't suspect anything's going on. He might just think someone accidentally dropped it. The same cannot be said for something as bizarre as a scouting orb.
Quote Posted by Chade
Also, it should
totally be a mirror ball ...
:D
Emeloy on 18/11/2009 at 08:58
You could use a trained mouse and some (harmless and easily with water solvable we don't want to hurt the animal) glue and have a walking mirror... and any guard that would see it would just think its a mutant mouse.
But seriously the mirror idea isn't bad, but I don't think it would really work. To give you a good view from a certain distance, it would have to be quite big, positioned very exactly and have perfect light.
Not to mention mirrors laying around maybe seen as quite harmless, but usual?
Can't say I've ever seen one dropped on the ground and I seriously doubt, they are usually found in say high security banks, galleries, private houses.
Chade on 18/11/2009 at 10:57
Shit, I just realized that I completely contradicted myself before. Of course, if the player can move around after dropping a mirror, then it is more powerful then the T1/2 scouting orb in that respect.
Mind you, I still would prefer a modified scouting orb ... BTW, if it fit under doors, you could make it small, flat, and roundish. Metallic upon close inspection, but looking remarkably like a small brownish pebble from further away.
Quote Posted by Emeloy
You could use a trained mouse and some (harmless and easily with water solvable we don't want to hurt the animal) glue and have a walking mirror... and any guard that would see it would just think its a mutant mouse.
So not only could we have a mirror ball, but we could have a mirror ball with a remote controlled hamster inside ... I'm starting to want this game. Thief 4: at the Disco! (Thief //\\ ?)
sparhawk on 18/11/2009 at 11:03
Quote Posted by Chade
The scouting orb strikes me as a great idea in theory.
When you develop a game, there are often ideas that look fantastic on the drawing board. You can discuss them as long as you want and they seem good. Only when you actually implement it, you realize that the idea is not so good after all. We had those moments in TDM as well, and that's why it is important to playtest. Of course, it can also happen the other way around, that somebody has good idea, everbody thinks is a waste of time and then you only realize it until it is put into action.
Chade on 18/11/2009 at 12:14
Sure, but we have only played with one version of the many possible scouting orbs out there. Furthermore, we don't even know whether less experienced players found that one version of the scouting orb useful.
So I'd argue that we don't have much empirical information at all.
