Dainem on 18/11/2009 at 15:38
I only know one FM where you really have to use the orb, and that´s "Assault at the gas station". My only problem: I would have never figured it out on my own because I am always ignoring the orb and never ever thought it could be useful.
The Shroud on 18/11/2009 at 17:54
Quote Posted by Dainem
I only know one FM where you really have to use the orb, and that´s "Assault at the gas station". My only problem: I would have never figured it out on my own because I am always ignoring the orb and never ever thought it could be useful.
Exactly! That's my issue too.
By the way, don't S.W.A.T. teams use some version of a mirror on a stick to safely check around corners?
KoHaN69 on 18/11/2009 at 20:29
Great discussion, lads!
But let me divert this thread just slightly:
All the talk about mirrors got me thinking....
(and I can't recall a single game that implemented this)
Mirrors! Huge Wall-mounted mirrors.
If a guard sees a the player in the mirror, could he pursue/investigate?
Is it possible for this feature to be be implanted in DarkMod? :idea:
The Shroud on 18/11/2009 at 20:47
I would love to see mirrors and other reflective surfaces implemented. In particular, I'd like to see polished marble floors, like in Frank Teran's paintings of the Wieldstrom Museum. And yes, if a guard sees Garrett's reflection, he should notice it.
ZylonBane on 18/11/2009 at 21:24
Deus Ex did the scouting orb properly, as the spy drone.
jtr7 on 18/11/2009 at 23:14
In discussions about mirrors, unless technology has made the processing feasible (effectively doubling the power needed to render the visible areas twice, including space behind the camera), doesn't it still require having two spaces fully built (as far as the mirror angles can allow one to see), that are physically mirror images? Since there are no photons in virtual worlds, has fast real time virtual rendering become possible? Don't games still have lag and framerate issues as is because the devs keep packing details into scenes, never letting the renderer breathe?
The mirror would still have to be a separate deal like the Scouting Orb or keyhole view to work, not to mention that the mirror would never beat the Scouting Orb for distance and the ability to bounce it around corners and objects, like standing at the bottom of Long Tom's wall and chucking the Scouting Orb up to the metal platform, or throwing it a hundred feet down and away to see beyond the long sight line.
And like the redundant and waste of development time of the keyhole view, all one has to do instead is stand still in a shadow and watch and listen, go to the next shadow or cover, watch and listen, and so on, as usual. Garrett is already over-powered and needs no more gadgets to undermine his mastery or the games' award-winning use of sound (for most players), and no more helping the impatient and unobservant player. A virtual mirror requires trickery (extra terrain-building, meaning less level size, since there are still limits on how many brushes and objects are allowed, and the fact that the room built to mirror the one the player is in eats into that count) or a separate screen to eliminate the need to build two spaces. A mirror at arm's length is redundant and not worth the development time and playtesting, and it cannot replace eyes, ears, and patience. The player should constantly be encouraged to be patient and observant, and to reach the level of mastery of Garrett.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see mirrors, but they are limited and the extra image requires careful planning to keep processing and terrain-building numbers at safe levels. Ever since Duke Nukem 3D, I've been surprised at the lack of mirrors in newer games, until I learned why. I know people are working on it, and there are demos showing small real time renderings--small ones.
Has anyone here loaded up the T2 FM Reflections, by Ricebug? :cool:
I think a clockwork spy rat would be more in keeping with the idiom/ethos of Thief, though I'd like to know who built it and how the inventor knew to make it work with Garrett's eye.
"What's that?"
"Musta been rats..."
"Don't worry... I won't get spooked an' sound the alarm if I hear a rat! (Like I did last itme)."
The Shroud on 19/11/2009 at 00:04
Quote Posted by jtr7
In discussions about mirrors, unless technology has made the processing feasible (effectively doubling the power needed to render the visible areas twice, including space behind the camera), doesn't it still require having two spaces fully built (as far as the mirror angles can allow one to see), that are physically mirror images? Since there are no photons in virtual worlds, has fast real time virtual rendering become possible? Don't games still have lag and framerate issues as is because the devs keep packing details into scenes, never letting the renderer breathe?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Oblivion have reflective water?
Quote Posted by jtr7
The mirror would still have to be a separate deal like the Scouting Orb or keyhole view to work
That would be fine with me, if that's in fact the case.
Quote Posted by jtr7
not to mention that the mirror would never beat the Scouting Orb for distance and the ability to bounce it around corners and objects, like standing at the bottom of Long Tom's wall and chucking the Scouting Orb up to the metal platform, or throwing it a hundred feet down and away to see beyond the long sight line.
Quote Posted by jtr7
Garrett is already
over-powered and needs no more gadgets to undermine his mastery or the games' award-winning use of sound (for most players), and no more helping the impatient and unobservant player.
These two statements seem to conflict with each other (unless I've misunderstood you and you are actually opposed to the scouting orb). If, as you say, Garrett is already over-powered (which I agree with), then for the very reasons you stated in the first quote, a less-powerful tool (like a mirror)
would be preferable.
Thief13x on 19/11/2009 at 04:19
I'm really shocked and a bit blindsided at the consensus in this thread. I use the scouting orb a LOT, in fact, practically constantly. I've gotten pretty quick with it too where it's not such a pain or a slowdown but flows very well with a stealthy approach.
Maybe it's because after beating T1 without it there really seems to be no need in T2 but I started using it particularly often when I quit saving during missions while trying to minimize ko's.
Takes a lot of the risk taking out and demanded heavy use of the scouting orb for me... Very surprised...I just assumed everyone else did too. damn:erg: It's funny how naked I feel when going back to T1 without it (although I've noticed that most of the T1 maps don't require it quite as much since there seems to be less corners that you can't see/hear around)
jtr7 on 19/11/2009 at 04:32
Is it because you haven't memorized the missions' layouts?
Thief13x on 19/11/2009 at 04:36
ah, that could very well be. I've only ever played through the OM's twice and am just finishing T2 for the second time. I use the map a LOT so I guess res ipsa loquitur on that one :p
