Doom 4 officially announced. - by june gloom
SubJeff on 25/7/2008 at 13:28
Quote Posted by catbarf
Random ammo spawn is fine. But giving you just enough and making sure your ammo hovers around a certain point is just annoying as hell.
It doesn't have to be a static level, and besides - have you ever played a game like this? I haven't so I don't know if it would be annoying.
The problem really is
knowing about the game mechanic. If you didn't know you'd find the game very tense and just tough enough. Are you going to enjoy Left 4 Dead any less because you know things are being altered on the fly?
catbarf on 26/7/2008 at 03:31
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
It doesn't have to be a static level, and besides - have you ever played a game like this? I haven't so I don't know if it would be annoying.
RE4, it's pretty bad.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
The problem really is
knowing about the game mechanic. If you didn't know you'd find the game very tense and just tough enough. Are you going to enjoy Left 4 Dead any less because you know things are being altered on the fly?
It's poor design if it relies on the player not understanding a basic gameplay mechanic for it to work. Any veteran player will know how the game works. Similarly, I could state that the usual system of pre-placed ammo is fine, since the new player who hasn't gone through before won't know where it all is.
Yakoob on 26/7/2008 at 03:52
Quote Posted by catbarf
It's poor design if it relies on the player not understanding a basic gameplay mechanic for it to work. Any veteran player will know how the game works. Similarly, I could state that the usual system of pre-placed ammo is fine, since the new player who hasn't gone through before won't know where it all is.
I disagree. It kills replayability to some extent, but playing through a game that keeps you on the edge of the seat without knowing it's doing it on purpose equates to a great experience. Who cares if you were "tricked" into it or that it breaks once you learn about it, it's still a great experience.
And no, usual system of pre-placed ammo is not fine as it doesn't guarantee the "on the edge" gameplay. Different people = different skill levels. Some will find it just right, some will find it insanely frustrating, some will find it too easy. A "director" ensures it's always "just right," provided you are unaware of the system.
Ignorance is bliss. Perhaps it depicts the futility of this mechanic, but then again games, as entertainment, shouldn't they try to get as close to bliss as possible?
june gloom on 26/7/2008 at 03:58
Catbarf, you are pulling a Koki (using warped logic to explain why something is bad) and it's irritating. And if you had trouble with ammo in Resident Evil 4 then you frankly suck at games.
sNeaksieGarrett on 26/7/2008 at 17:15
Now now fellas, no need to bicker at each other.:p
catbarf on 26/7/2008 at 21:08
Quote Posted by Yakoob
I disagree. It kills replayability to some extent, but playing through a game that keeps you on the edge of the seat without knowing it's doing it on purpose equates to a great experience. Who cares if you were "tricked" into it or that it breaks once you learn about it, it's still a great experience.
I see what you mean. However, I think that it's a game mechanic that can reward poor players and punish good ones. I can fire at every last shadow or use my knife whenever possible, but I still end up just as well-off. Difficulty settings are generally what is used to suit different skill levels, and this destroys that game mechanic.
Quote Posted by dethtoll
And if you had trouble with ammo in Resident Evil 4 then you frankly suck at games.
PC version. 'Nuff said.
june gloom on 26/7/2008 at 21:37
Then you deserve what you get.
Yakoob on 26/7/2008 at 22:43
Quote Posted by catbarf
I see what you mean. However, I think that it's a game mechanic that can reward poor players and punish good ones. I can fire at every last shadow or use my knife whenever possible, but I still end up just as well-off. Difficulty settings are generally what is used to suit different skill levels, and this destroys that game mechanic.
But, in a single player game, does it matter? I mean, if you are enjoying the experience, does it matter if it's through reward or punishment? We've had "easy/medium/hard" levels for ages now and no one complains about the poorer players having it easier.
And further, what if you never knew which difficulty you were on? You'd still try to play smart and the game would keep encouraging you too. You can't abuse something you don't know about.
Also note I am not advertising oblivion-style level scaling, but something much more sophisticated and geared towards the "on the edge" gameplay rather than equality.
catbarf on 26/7/2008 at 23:23
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Then you deserve what you get.
Forgive me for accepting holiday presents of mediocre games from a friend who didn't know better.
Quote Posted by Yakoob
But, in a single player game, does it matter? I mean, if you are enjoying the experience, does it matter if it's through reward or punishment? We've had "easy/medium/hard" levels for ages now and no one complains about the poorer players having it easier.
And further, what if you never knew which difficulty you were on? You'd still try to play smart and the game would keep encouraging you too. You can't abuse something you don't know about.
The thing is, I'd know about it, as would anyone who reads a game review before buying. It's awful gimmicky to rely on the player having no foreknowledge of the game. As for enjoyment of the game, I want something that can frustrate me if I do poorly and reward me if I play well. I don't want to be constantly aided whenever I'm not doing well. Difficulty increases the sense of accomplishment. In Bioshock, for example, the Vita-Chambers meant that victory just felt hollow. And when I'm able to play my best and start doing well, I don't want the game to suddenly rack up the difficulty to compensate. When I played RE4, for example, I was never given much ammo when I hoarded it, went for headshots, etc. In the end, I just said 'Fuck it' and gave up on the careful approach, and was given plenty of ammunition as I quickly burned through it. If anything, that rewarded me for not being careful.
Quote Posted by Yakoob
Also note I am not advertising oblivion-style level scaling, but something much more sophisticated and geared towards the "on the edge" gameplay rather than equality.
I understand, but in the end a reductio ad absurdum to Oblivion highlights the flaws in the system, namely a lack of feeling of accomplishment.
Yakoob on 26/7/2008 at 23:40
Quote Posted by catbarf
The thing is, I'd know about it, as would anyone who reads a game review before buying.
Of course. I was merely arguing the hypothetical scenario.
