Thief_4 on 12/3/2008 at 03:23
i ment nothing as in his past,it seems the small amount we learn about him personaly makes me wonder if he even ha a past,like where did he come from?"auldale" since he has money?,i just wish there was some depth in more charecters history,there are lots of other charecters i want to know more about like viktoria,woodsie lord/constintine=we know a good amount about him,but i would always like to know more,etc
i am a story driven gamer when it comes to thief,i like to know as much about my enemy as they know about them selves
User was banned by Digital Nightfall on 8-4-2008
Yandros on 12/3/2008 at 03:28
:eek: You're missing some big story facts -
* Karras was a Hammerite.
* The Mechanists started as a splinter cell.
* Karras was the Hammer who made Garrett's mechanical eye at the end of T1.
I'm sure jtr will add plenty more now that I've started... :cheeky:
electricchild on 12/3/2008 at 03:37
Quote Posted by jtr7
Yeah, Karras didn't know what Garrett was up to. All he knew was that he had to start his end-game sooner than he'd planned. Karras had no idea that Garrett had turned his own weapon against him. The "Don't let Karras know what you are up to" objective could not be on the list and end in a fight. It would also mean creating a mission that falls way outside the box of a THief game.
I'm wondering what kind of fight you would want Garrett and Karras to have, electricchild? Garrett's not supposed to be a fighter, and Karras shows no special physical or mystical abilities.
Also, Thief_4, define knowing "nothing" about Karras's background.:)
Well I was certainly thinking a physical confrontation to the death would be in order. Sword against modified Hammer possibly on the top of Soul Forge where Garrett prepares to set the final switch to attract everyone to Beacon B.
jtr7 on 12/3/2008 at 03:38
A canon-breaking what-if situation would be fine on its own, but as part of Thief, there is no precendent for it. I, too, would have like to have seen Karras as more mechanical-seeming, though. His skin was said to have taken on a metallic appearance, but that journal entry seems anamolous with the Karras AI skin and cutscene. THe Mechanists were beyond the hammer. They were about the Gear and the Boiler. The Mechanists wield maces with two gears for the head. Karras is never seen with one. Karras has a thinner, unarmored body, made to look very similar to the Masked Servants in many ways. Garrett is not a sword-master, he's frequently discouraged from killing or dwelling on it. What players do is up to them, but the story is about cunning, sneaking, and--until TDS--about getting the "boss" to kill themselves with their own instrument of death.
As for listing out everything the games give about Karras's past, Yandros would know, heh heh, how carried away I could get.;)
I'll post the list later, but let's just say, we have more about his past than Garrett's....
jtr7 on 12/3/2008 at 05:02
As with many of these threads, it would seem to be too heavy in spoilers for ThiefGen, but I keep wondering what people are supposed to talk about here if they can never discuss the game. Nonetheless...
Here's one of his many rants that you'd like, then, electricchild:
kar1603E: "(Tauntungly) I see theee! And the one they called Garrett did come. A meddler was he, and trickery and stealth were his weapons. Then Karras, the Brave, did seize him! And then smote him right down...with the venom of Truth, and the mace...of the Righteous. Praaaaise Karras!"
As for the rest, there is a very heavy emphasis on Karras protecting himself to see the Builder's Paradise, and staying in his protective chamber for that purpose. He just keeps sending bots and the others against Garrett. The quote above seems more like sabre-rattling than something we'd ever see Karras do. There are quotes here to address both electricchild and Thief_4.
M16B41: "Journals of Brother Kelsus
... He hath truly forsaken his followers, but I remember not o'er long ago when he was a Hammer priest rallying his peers 'round him for improvements in the Order. It seems as though an eternity hath transpired since then. I think now of the days when I was a Hammer, and how we put our faith in our tenets and championed The Builder, and each other, above all. ..."
TH106800: "Hey, didja hear what happened to Gibson?"
TH206801: "No, what happened?"
TH106802: "Got 20 years in Cragscleft. He pulled a freelance job at the Bafford manor."
TH206803: "That's crazy!"
TH106804: "Not as crazy as what he was after!"
TH206805: "Okay, what was it?"
TH106806: "His silver scepter!"
TH206807: "[laughs] You mean to tell me this taffer went through all the trouble of breaking into Lord Bafford's manor only in order to steal a scepter that's already been stolen?"
TH106808: "Yup."
TH206809: "Why did he end up in Cragscleft, though? Figure Bafford would've just turned him over to the Sheriff."
TH106810: "Some Hammerite named Karras offered Bafford something in exchange for him."
TH206811: "What did Bafford get?"
TH106812: "Don't know, and I don't care. Got nothing to do with me, anyway!"
KCdictionary: "Compiled Lexicography, Volume IV: Religion
... Mechanist Religion: "A schism of the Hammerite Religion (see) formed by the prophet Karras. The Mechanists were characterized by a focus on machinery and technology, and an overwhelming desire to destroy elements of nature. After the destruction of their primary cathedral Soulforge and the death of Karras, the religion was disbanded. See Hammerite Heresy Trials, The for more information."
HIkarras: "All that is metal is not of the Builder alone, as all that is wood is not of the Trickster alone. Wood canst be shaped and carved, so that it serveth as part of a great house for the Master Builder. Even iron canst serve contrary to its nature, for the glory and service of false gods. If thou doubtest these words, turn thine eye only to the ruin of Soulforge, where the Builder himself smote down the workings of the heretic Karras and his wicked crafts."
HIbooks: "Brother Partis, I have gleaned what information I could about these volumes:
-Homilies of the Jeremites, illustrated. Priory of the Forge.
-Glendower Volume. Missing in Karras' Upheavals.
-Glory of St. Edgar. Damaged but legible.
-Codex of the Admonitions. A gold-bound and valuable text. Stored in the prayer room on the west side of the church, top floor."
M14B03: "The New Scripture of The Master Builder (draft, page 16)
Karras saw that a person, an animal, a plant, anything ill-borne of nature, when consumed by the gaseous Necrotic Mutox would dissolve into rust. Karras had observed this many times, over and over again, for in it He felt the presence of Truth. Whether released by a container or through the lips of a Servant's mask, Karras would observe the action of the gas from a spot as close to the area of effect as He possibly could in safety. When the rust settled, Karras would zealously scrutinize the remains for meaning.
And now Karras looked back upon those investigations, and He spoke aloud, saying: 'Oh Master Builder, I have felt Your will. I know that I have been chosen to bring Your Paradise to the world. I know that I must not fail, or Your wrath shall consume me and I shall lie forever in the Forest You have saved for those who are unholy. Master Builder, My mind shall be sharp, My machines will not falter, and I will keep Karras from the risk of death. In Your name I shall construct a protective chamber in Soulforge Cathedral, and there, where I cannot be harmed, Karras shall stay. I shall reconsider every element of My plan: 'if any are weak, Karras shall make them sound.'"
M16B50: "The New Scripture of The Master Builder (draft, page 41)
To assist his calculations Karras drafted a map of the city, and now He saw the circles He had drawn and was pleased. Nowhere was there a place that would be uncleansed by the Necrotic Mutox, and its effects would extend beyond the city. The circles conjoined in the center, the very heart of the city, the same city that had spurned Karras and denounced The Builder. Karras knew from this sign that all was to be as He had seen.
Karras spake: 'Master Builder, Karras will not fail you as the Precursors did! Where an entire civilization denied Thee and was felled by Thy hand, Karras shall do Thy will! Thank Thee for directing Karras to their ashes, to discover their error and Thy gifts they misused, that Karras now uses as Thou intended. Karras hath built for Thee Thy Children, the successors of the human race, and now by Thy hand Karras shall wipe away the plague that we are, that Thy Children may last eternal, in purity.'
But The Builder spoke to Karras, then, saying 'Oh Karras, Thou art truly faithful as Thou sayest. I give Thee now this command: that Thou shall remain Thyself alive when all about Thee turns to Holy Rust.
When My Paradise has come, Thou shall have a place beside Me, among My Children.'
And Karras fell to his knees and cried out, 'Thank Thee, Master Builder! Thy will shall be done!'"
M11B08: "The New Scripture of The Master Builder (draft, page 35)
The Builder smiled on the things Karras had done. Out of devotion, He had invented many machines, and these machines now served Him well. He had transformed wretched humans into agents of The Builder’s will, controlled directly by the influence of Karras' machines. These were called Servants, and they had been embraced by those in the city who considered themselves superior because of the wealth of their coffers instead of their spirits. These same people had beamed at Karras with one face but with another face smirked amongst each other and shared affronts.
For this Karras had once detested them, but He saw now their role in the Builder’s Plan. In all these things Karras had forged the tools that He would use to bring the Builder’s Paradise to the world. The Builder looked upon these tools as Karras made preparations to put them to use, and His gaze showed favor, and Karras felt the Builder’s hands upon Him and the Builder’s strength helping Karras carry His burdens."
kar1601B: "But lo, how easily evil is felled when the righteous hold the mace! (Chuckles) Thou art transparent to me, Garrett. Even now I can see thou seekest to stop me, but there is naught you can do."
kar1601C: "My chamber resists all manner of infiltrations, even from a skilled man such as thyself. The Servants hearken to my instructions only, and even now await my commands!"
kar1601D: "Maybe I've waited o'ermuch. Garrett, thine intrusion has been my cue to begin now the final preparations. May the world be ready for the Builder's arrival! I fear you not, Garrett, but I have dispatched some of the Builder's Children to intercept yooou. Thou too will perish...and trouble me...no more...."
kar1602A: "I know thou art not a believer, Garrett. Yet thou art well aware that half of all thou seest is through Mechanist machinery: Thy metal eye. I gave the eye to thee in the hopes that thou wouldst be an ally, but 'twas not to be. You have eluded me in the past, Garrett, but no one--not even thee--will escape this night."
kar1602B: "Why choose the side of villainy, Garrett? Why the side of the witch-woman? With you as aide my plans could have been so much further along. (Sighs as he says) Hmm, 'twould have been most advantageous."
kar1602C: "Nay, I shall not pine, Garrett, that thou wert no ally to me. Thou art not known for constancy...nor loyalty. 'Twas from the folly of Constantine that I learned that. Yes, I know all about thy past dealings. Why else should I concern myself with the likes of thee? I wouldst to have thee under my control, else dead! Indeed...I'd have had both."
kar1602D: "Long ago, I realized that heretics would never accept their roles in the coming of The Builder's paradise. I anticipated thine oppositions, Garrett...and others who wouldst try to murder me. Thus the Builder protects me. This chamber from which I speak, hmm? 'Tis His arms encircling me, and all that I need is here within. I need not emerge until the Builder's paradise has come...and you are but dust...blown upon the wind."
kar1602E: "Still alive, Garrett? Thou scurries about like a mouse. And for what? Why not leave this place and try to destroy each of the Servants? Oh, but there are thirty mansions, too many to infiltrate in one night? You misspend your last hours of life. 'Tis equally dignified to laze in a field and await thy death, heh."
kar1602F: "'Twas The Builder that smote them, the Precursors. He gave them the power to bring about His Paradise, but they refused or lacked the ingenuity. The why of it is forever unknown, but 'tis clear they were punished for their failings. Their civilization was wiped away that ours could emerge, and now ours shall give way to The Builder's."
kar1602G: "Sifting through the remnants of the Precursors' world, I found the tools The Builder had left for me. Why save these things when all else is gone? The Builder hath spoken to Karras, and imagine my joy when finally I did piece the puzzle together! How long did it wait for one...such as me? One who could bring about the age when The Builder would walk again...on earth?"
kar1602H: "Look about you, Garrett! I built these machines you see, and in turn they produced the Builder's children. The Necrotic Mutox, the Servants, everything! 'Tis my gift to The Builder! Soulforge Cathedral and all it contains! 'Twill be the very center of The Builder's Paradise! Surely this strikes wonder into your heart."
kar1602I: "Who killed that fool Truart? Was it thee? Or that woman of the woods? Truart.... It amused me to learn he'd been murdered. He was but a...bumbling pawn who thought himself king. He provided me with material to create Servants, but he was useless for stopping the Pagans! ...Or thee."
kar1602J: "I should offer thanks to your departing Trickster woman, for 'twas she that warned me. Before her arrival, I thought the City was blind to The Builder's Paradise I shall soon bring about. Yet 'tis just thee who knows. No matter...for even if all The City knew, still...I could not be stopped."
kar1602K: "Alas, I alone must wait for purification. I must remain alive to greet The Builder, while all around me all else is cleansed by His wondrous breath. The day shall come when I, too, breathe in His perfection. My burden is heaviest now, but my rewards will be greatest...later. Praise The Builder for all His wisdom!"
kar1602L: "I know not why you oppose me. In one act I will end all human suffering, and clear the path for The Builder to walk again on earth. History will move forward. My tireless children will build in His name, creating advancements...beyond our understanding. Now is the dark time before the days of light. Why dost thou oppose me!"
kar1602M: "Soon all will be blessed with the breath of The Builder: the Necrotic Mutox that I created. And all the souls--the rich that spurned me, the City Watch that betrayed me, the loathsome Pagans, the mindless commoners, even the loyal followers of Karras, all!--all will receive the blessing and the cleansing. But will they raise up their arms and praise Karras as the vapors make them pure? Nay! They will wail and scream--most ungrateful!"
kar1602N: "Garrett...thou must prepare thy soul for The Builder's arrival. Cleanse thy thoughts and accept His words. Embrace the coming of The Builder's Paradise, and rejoice in the humble part...that thou hast played."
kar1602P: "What hast thou...built..., Garrett? When the time comes to review thy life, with The Master Builder afore thee, and the question is asked, 'What hast...thou...built,' what will thee say, poor Garrett? For thou art a man of...destruction, not...construction. 'Tis the biggest sin of all. Build thyself today a good...house! That would please Him much!"
kar1602Q: "Who is Karras, but the Hand of The Builder? What the Builder wills, Karras...does. What the Builder wants, Karras...makes. Praise to Karras! ...And the Builder."
kar1602R: "(Weeping in awe of his own glory) I have built so many things! I have made Servants...f-f-from street scum! I've made towering arches from raw...ore! I have built to glorify Him that is Builder and teacher. If ever I did a thing, 'twas always...f-f-for Him. He knows this, for He knows--he knows all...."
kar1602S: "How can mere man...conceive the gear? Nay, 'twas The Builder! He speaks it first in our waiting ears, then guides our pen when 'tis time to writ. 'Twas not Karras that conceived this plan! It was The Builder spoke it first to his ear, and guides him now during final hours."
kar1602T: "When I sit in judgment, the Builder afore me, and He asks, 'Karras, what hast thou built,' I will answer...thusly: 'I have built...a church for Thee, solid...and good. And also for Thee...countless structures. I have forged...minions of children, wrought innumerable tools...all in Your Name. He will be pleased, and I will take my place by His side."
kar1603A: "What? Thou lives still? Thou wilt not escape this time!"
kar1603B: "Garrett! In truth I thought thou had perished already. Thou'lt soon, then!"
kar1603C: "By The Builder, Garrett, thou wilt be crushed between gears like dry leaves underfoot!"
kar1603D: "(Tauntingly) Garrett...thine end is nearrr. Cease thy squirmings and pray for thy very sooull...."
kar1603F: "(Tauntingly) Nay, nay! Stop thy destructions, Garrett. Thou art...not important. Thou hast not built anything...not like Karras has, hmm. I shall strike thee down for certain, this time...."
kar1603G: "Again, I see thee, thief! Cease thy slitherings. Be gone from here...or perish. I have important preparations to attend to."
kar1603H: "I am thankful that Karras was chosen to cleanse the earth...for Him. (Praying) Builder, guide me in my final preparations! Builder, fuel me...and smite mine enemies. Smite now this...bothersome nettle that I see again before me."
kar1603I: "Art thou not a thief? Then steal thyself away, pest! (Highly amused and chortles too much) Yes (chuckles), hurry now and steal thyself away from this most holy place, ere The Builder's Children arrive again...to smite thee certain this time."
kar1603J: "Seeks thee to stop me, but 'tis not to be. Thou art a lowly thief at worst, and at best, inconstant friend to the dead tree woman. I am Karras...pure...brave...and good! Now Karras must attend to his scriptures...and The Builder's Children...shall attend to thy fate...."
kar1603K: "Seest thou my children? The Children of Karras? Are they not obedient? Are they not swift? I thank The Builder that pride is no sin, else of them sinfully proud would I be! And now, I see thee again, and I say to them, 'Go now, and fetch for the thief the violent fate he hath earned!'"
Thief_4 on 12/3/2008 at 05:07
great info,i forgot he started as a hammer :),but most of the rest is current event on him and how freaky he really is
who is more into them selves with attitude woodsie lord or karras?
User was banned by Digital Nightfall on 8-4-2008
electricchild on 12/3/2008 at 06:25
jtr7 you make very good points about Karras and the fact that he is not a fighter. Also I didn't realize the weapons the Mechanists wield are maces with gears... I never took a really good look at them to be honest.
And thanks for those quotes, I couldn't really make out a lot of what Karras was saying due to his impediment, so it's nice to get those things clarified.
jtr7 on 12/3/2008 at 07:17
Cool.
A former Hammer who was crushed by the weight of the nobility's mockery of him, mostly behind his back, which he became too aware of. Obviously a fragile person in many ways, but struck at some point later with an epiphany that empowered him. It's not known when he became insane, but revenge seems to have always been the driving force. It seems to have skipped the "I'll show them..." stage, and rapidly descended into a righteous judgment and wrath of the Builder. Like Azaran, he gathered supporters for his cause, and proved he had a powerful vision that was being realized without a doubt.
Solabusca on 12/3/2008 at 07:33
Quote Posted by R Soul
It would not have been particularly original, since that's how most games end.
Agreed. When you think of everything Garrett's done (brought down the Pagans and the Mechanists, and in Thief 3, he
accidentally brought down the Keepers), it's far more plausible that he rarely let anyone know he was doing it until it was too late.
I wouldn't say that TDS' end-game results were 'accidental'. I think G new EXACTLY what he was doing.
.j.
nicked on 12/3/2008 at 08:55
He knew what to do, but I don't think he realised the exact implications it would have on the Keeper order.
jtr7 - that conversation about the guy who got 20 years in Cragscleft, where is that in the game - I don't remember hearing it anywhere?
