Dumbing down for consoles... grrr...

Bakerman on 20/10/2009 at 08:30

Quote Posted by jtr7

"Both camps happy..."

Not if work is div ided, which is one of a handful of points being hammered until its existence, its reality, is no longer ignored or disbelieved.

Well, what I meant is to be able to avoid obvious cases of consoleisation. For example, Operation Flashpoint: Dragon Rising doesn't have leaning. Which makes no sense, except when you take consoles into account. But there's no reason why they couldn't have put leaning into the game, then either taken it out of the console release, or kept it in a separate code branch. I'm not saying they should make two radically different games, but when implementing certain features that will differ between the console and PC, it's not too difficult to keep them separate. If the game is designed that way from the beginning.

Quote Posted by Captain Spandex

They could approach it like BioWare did Mass Effect: take extra time on the PC version, finesse it until it's ready... then release it after the console version. The PC version of Mass Effect and Assassin's Creed were both released about a year later, but are categorically head-and-shoulders above the console versions.

PC fans might cry fowl due to being forced to wait, but ultimately, the final product is all that matters.

...or, in an ideal world, make a good PC game, then dumb it down for consoles post-release. That's not likely to happen - but I'd be happy if they did what you suggested.

jtr7 on 20/10/2009 at 10:14

:thumb:

Mortis on 21/10/2009 at 07:42

I wouldnt mind waiting an extra year for a 'good' PC port, just as long as I dont know it has been released on console and get tempted to try it out or read some spoilers on the net by mistake. This would probably ruin the game for me.

What if the game is a flop on consoles and the publishers decide to scrap the PC port ? That is a risk Im not willing to take.

I would rather have a game that is a bit better than TDS i.e. without any serious level size issues, swimmable water, no dodgy physics and body awareness. The core gameplay mechanics and engine should be decent and not limit the Thiefy experience. If we get something like this along with a powerful SDK that allows us to add ANYTHING we need to make the game better incase it is subpar, then I will be perfectly happy knowing the Thief modding comunity will be able to 'fix' or 'improve' the game if need be.

However the storyline, sound and level design has to be either very good, great, or excellent jsut like the previous games. Anything less will suck since the Thief games were always 50% gameplay and 50% story, sound, etc and always 0% graphics (atleast to most fans). We dont want Crysis, as long as there is light and shadows, even if the graphics are slightly better than TDS, most of us wil be happy.

Platinumoxicity on 21/10/2009 at 17:40

I wouldnt mind waiting an extra decade for a good PC Thief, just as long as I know it isn't being developed on consoles first. This would probably ruin the game for everybody who wants the game to be all it can be.

What if the game is overwhelmingly popular on PC and the publishers decide to scrap the console port just because it sold so well on PC? That is a risk Im not... wait, what was I talking about again?

I would like to have a game that is a bit better than TDP and a lot better than TDS i.e. without any serious level size issues, swimmable water, no dodgy physics and body awareness. Asking for a game better than TMA though is a bit too much to ask IMO. The core gameplay mechanics and engine should be decent and not limit the Thiefy experience. If we get something like this along with a powerful SDK that allows us to add ANYTHING we need to make the game better incase it is subpar, then I will be perfectly happy knowing the Thief modding comunity will be able to 'fix' or 'improve' the game if need be.

However the level design, sound and story have to be either very good, great, or excellent just like the previous games. Anything less will suck since the Thief games were always 50% gameplay and 50% sound, story, etc and always 0% graphics (atleast to most fans). We dont want Crysis, as long as there is light and shadows, even if the graphics are only slightly better than TDS, most of us will be happy. Except this one guy I know who plays games for the graphics because his dad is a millionaire and buys him a new supercomputer every other month.

sNeaksieGarrett on 21/10/2009 at 18:15

Uhh... you just copy-pasted the guy above you.:weird:
(I know, not entirely.)

Quote Posted by Captian Spandex

This could easily happen. I've seen it done with two recent releases: Red Faction Guerrilla and Batman Arkham Asylum. Rene, if you're reading this thread, please mention it to your superiors!:cheeky: Pretty please?:angel:

Kovitlac on 27/10/2009 at 04:35

I know pretty much no one here sees it the same way I do. But I don't buy into the whole 'dumbing down' thing. TDS was by far my favorite of the bunch. I loved being able to roam around the City, not just trudge from mission to mission.

jtr7 on 27/10/2009 at 04:58

What? There's no trudging from mission to mission BUT in TDS. :weird: The free-roaming was no less linear, and there was actually less to discover.

If you don't buy into it, you don't see what should be plain as day, and therefore, it seems you don't know dumbed-down from superior. :nono: It would be better if you saw it and just weren't bothered by it. This is a prime example of exactly what we mean when we get angry and disappointed by the dumbed-down masses--they don't see the problem and haven't got a real counter-argument for those who can't but see it.

Kovitlac on 27/10/2009 at 15:42

Moving from mission to mission, without actually being able to experience for yourself what The City is (to an understandable extent). Being able to ally yourself with two seperate factions, or none at all. Being able to sell your loot yourself, or not sell it if you so wish. Not to mention a 'hidden' level of sorts, which you can play through or you can simply avoid.

These are reasons I by far enjoy Thief 3 more then either of the others. Being on PC or being on the xbox has nothing to do with it. And frankly, perhaps there is a reason why the console market is so better treated.

Bakerman on 27/10/2009 at 23:38

You've woken the beast...

Quote Posted by Kovitlac

Moving from mission to mission, without actually being able to experience for yourself what The City is (to an understandable extent).

I wish I could find someone's comparison of the amount of City that actually was in both games. One level in TMA had far more City to explore than all the City segments together in TDS. I, and a lot of other fans here, are quite happy being able to explore a huge segment of the city in each mission, rather than having a tiny slice of it to wander through between missions.

Quote Posted by Kovitlac

Being able to ally yourself with two seperate factions, or none at all. Being able to sell your loot yourself, or not sell it if you so wish.

Some regard these as gimmicks, but I can see the appeal. But they're also not the main issues peopel talk about when they speak of consoleisation.

Quote Posted by Kovitlac

These are reasons I by far enjoy Thief 3 more then either of the others. Being on PC or being on the xbox has nothing to do with it. And frankly, perhaps there is a reason why the console market is so better treated.

The platform might not have any impact on your enjoyment of the game - and I'm sure most people would feel the same, if the game were acceptable. The idea is that by trying to fit it onto consoles, the designers made concessions that shouldn't have had to be made for a PC game.

Captain Spandex on 28/10/2009 at 05:47

Well, the 'City' sections in Thief 3 were different in the sense that you revisited the same area again and again, and depending on what you'd done before, things would be different. Like if you robbed the guy in South Quarter, he'd leave a journal saying "Someone was in here, wish they'd left me something to eat." Or if you robbed your apartment repeatedly, the guard would be fired.

The City segments in Thief 1 and 2 were larger in terms of actual space, but far more linear in the sense that nothing you did inside of that space had any impact outside of your one mission. I think if the Thief 4 team revisited the TDS 'City' concept with current gen tech, the results would be much better, so long as the little details present in Life of the Party or Shipping... and Receiving made an appearance.

And while I agree with the argument that Deadly Shadows has a briefing / mission / briefing / mission 'trudging' feel that detracts from the overall experience... the same could be said of The Dark Project, to an even greater extent. Most of those missions are painfully linear. Doesn't stop me from loving TDP, and doesn't hurt my enjoyment of DS, either.