Dumbing down for consoles... grrr...

Chade on 30/10/2009 at 05:24

I love T3, and also regard statements that "the game is linear" as mere hyperbole. But the fact is that smaller levels means less large scale spatial choice. You can't really get around that.

Platinumoxicity on 3/11/2009 at 19:54

Can anyone recall how many entrypoints the First City Bank and Trust had? 10 or so?

Namdrol on 3/11/2009 at 20:26

Life is linear because we live in a time stream so all games have some form of linearity to them
But we can choose what to do in that time stream.
I messed about with Doom3 (yes, I know I said I wasn't gonna play it and it wasn't for long because I got mighty bored).
But that is a linear game with no choice.
You're on a conveyor belt shooting things, that's it.
You're blocked from going back every few minutes and hey guess what?
You've got more and more things to shoot with bigger and bigger guns.

So yes, Thief has linearity because it has a developing story line, but you can make your own choices within that framework.

sNeaksieGarrett on 3/11/2009 at 21:50

Quote Posted by Chade

Not really.

In the conversation above, before I started to post, you had a bunch of posts talking about non-linearity, but using entirely different definitions for the term.

The most common way in which people talk about non-linearity is large scale spatial choice. Going in via the side-door vs going in via the roof. Taking tunnel A rather then tunnel B. I believe this is the way you are using the term, but perhaps you are using a more generic definition of "path".

I don't really understand what you mean by "large scale spatial choice" but we're talking the same thing here I think... But yeah, I was talking more along the lines of moving from point a to point b, not 'take door A or take door b.'

Quote:

So I'm saying two things:

Firstly, non-linearity is a measure of how much choice the player has. The term is defined by the type of choice you are interested in. Spatial choice is not the only type of choice that thief offers, and is not necesarily what you are referring to when you say that thief is non-linear.

Please explain further. What do you mean by spacial choice, and that it is not the only type of choice?

Quote:

Secondly, large scale spatial non-linearity plays a relatively minor role in thief's stealth gameplay. The player is encouraged to sneak through most parts of the map. The order in which he does so is largely immaterial: most of thief's choices have local consequences only. Of the few global consequences (an alarm going off maybe), most are punishments for failure, rather then an intentional part of the player's strategy.

Large scale non-linearity was a central part of thief 1 and 2's aesthetic, however (remember that thread asking members to describe thief in three words? Iirc exploration was mentioned at least as much as stealth, and immersion/atmosphere were mentioned more then either exploration or stealth).

again, explain what you mean by "large-scale."

Chade on 3/11/2009 at 23:37

"large scale spatial choice" as in: do I enter the mansion from the top floor and move down, or enter from the basement? Do I start in the east wing, and move around the front towards the left wing, or the opposite? Do I explore the catacombs or the streets first?

"small scale spatial choice" would be: do I traverse this room by moving along this wall, or do I run to the shadows by the fireplace? Do I follow the guard in his patrol around rooms A and B, or do I travel around rooms A and B in the opposite direction? Will I try to sneak past the guard in this room, or will I see if the corridoor next to me lets me bypass the room entirely?

Non-spatial choices would include: do I go now, or wait a couple of minutes to be safe? Do I put out that torch? Do I pick that lock, or try to take that guards key?

sNeaksieGarrett on 4/11/2009 at 19:22

Ohhh, I get it now. You're using "large scale spatial choice" to describe how to enter a place (bigger picture so to speak) and "small scale spatial choice" to describe deciding what to do from room to room.

Quote Posted by chade]

Non-spatial choices would include: do I go now, or wait a couple of minutes to be safe? Do I put out that torch? Do I pick that lock, or try to take that guards key?

Ah, I figured that is what you meant but didn't want to just jump to conclusions.;)

Chade on 4/11/2009 at 23:28

Yep.