Jashin on 21/11/2006 at 10:10

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Well, I've played the games (yes I've gone back and played TMA like I promised). So as far as the builder is concerned, he's a make-belief deity am I right? Or perhaps he was the original dude who came up with the idea for a hammer cult in a bid to seize power? Is there any footnote laying around somewhere in Thief that explains this? The paganist god is real in the Thief world, and his deal is a bit short-lived.

jtr7 on 21/11/2006 at 22:14

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No, there is no explicit explanation...unfortunately. Quite a few taffers believe the Builder's mythological only. I'd still like an explanation for the superior source of magic used to defeat the Trickster in the past, and in TDP/Gold by one priest with a chisel. And what were the Mechanist Priests/Priestesses tapping into to conjure projectiles?

DarkThiefsie on 21/11/2006 at 22:51

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T E R R Y P R A T C H E T T

On an unrelated note, how can we prove that the builder is real? The builder's powers only manifests itself through:
1) Holy water
2) Hammer priest spells (oh and mechanist priests too)
3) Some misc builder spells (e.g. the builder prayer in undercover)

It could very well be that the builder doesn't exist as a deity, but as a means to explain the 'magic' prevelant in technolgy (Mechanists) and the magic employed by hammerite priests and mechanist priests.

It kinda explains why the pagans could use their magic even when the trickster died. And why the 'builder' supported both the mechanists and the hammerites.

thiefinthedark on 22/11/2006 at 06:22

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*points at the trickster* You call THAT thing make-believe?

Elentari on 23/11/2006 at 01:10

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Actually *most* fictional religions 'mock' real religions in some form or another. Almost all of them are based on the writer's experience or knowledge with minor changes or twists. Personally I don't see it so much as a mockery, so much as inevitable. Goes along with the phrase 'nothing new under the sun'. Heh even looking at real life religions, they overlap each other in places. Never quite identical, never quite that different.

That being said, I think with the builder and trickster it could go in either direction. There's 'proof' in either direction, and, perhaps if we had more detail about the world in general, we would get our answer. But our view of the world is fairly narrow.

I would *GUESS* that if they were to expand on the world and concepts more that since the Trickster himself is (most definitely) real, that the Builder would be as well. There was no real cause or need in these three stories FOR him to show. I would also go so far as to guess there are other 'god' creatures, a pantheon or another species that pass themselves as gods.

There are also other reasons the builder is not so visible. 1. Whatever he, and the other gods are, could have some sort of semi-noninterference rule that they don't show themselves. 2. They show themselves periodically, but long periods of time can go by between sightings. After all if they are some sort of immortal, time may not seem the same to them. 3. They were once real, but have since left, or occupy themselves elsewhere etc.

The trickster could be the 'black sheep' of the species. (I am reluctant to say 'god' because it seems stupid that a god could be disposed of so easily. Although, maybe it was less easy than it seemed to me. Maybe he was only a half-god or something.)

All speculation, of course, but you get what I mean. It sort of comes down to whatever you, as the player, prefer to think.

I'm inclined to think that in the Thief world they are real, and there are more of them. After all one world for two creatures that are not human seems a little sparse. But hey, thats just me.