Chade on 18/11/2009 at 21:28
I have never been in any doubt that both the T3 and T4 teams will be staffed by many thief fans (and dx fans too). (Hell, if you dig around enough you'll see me link to a Clint Hocking blog post saying that developing T4 and DX3 might be EM's way of attracting talented developers to the new studio.)
But while passion is good, making a Thief game for a modern audience is one tough ask. I have no idea how I would do it.
At the end of the day, thief is a game where there are positive feedback cycles leading towards the least satisfying part of the game. Stealth is the unstable equilibrium. Combat is the stable equilibrium. The player needs to be skillfull enough to divert the natural flow of the game, or he will have an unsatisfying experience. Not exactly a natural fit for a today's audiences.
I don't see how they can possibly make a mainstream thief game without making changes that some people here are going to consider "heresey". Hopefully I am proven wrong ...
Still, at least knowing the series will help them make better compromises.
jtr7 on 18/11/2009 at 23:36
Quote Posted by Eshaktaar
I tend to agree with Beleg. The amount of pessimism floating around here borders on parody. Might as well rename the forum to Sourpuss Central. ;)
You seriously don't understand
skepticism? Pessimism doesn't spring from nothing, you know. Optimism is often really denial, and gets nothing done, as if happy thoughts here manifest in good works there. How many times does one need to be burned before they learn that one team cannot possibly match what another team did under very different circumstances, workplace culture, and through the friction/harmony of individuals of different backgrounds? The chances are already slim, and add to that the multi-platform goals (which will be made first?), the outside-looking-in perspective of the devs, and the very strong likelihood they will add crap to broaden the audience for money (why do
any of us care about their profits at this point?), and the very strong likelihood they will fix something that was not broken, overlook a strength and replace it with something kewl, and the strong likelihood they have "new" old-and-tired ideas to bring to an unorthodox series. This is where the pessimist states it's not pessimistic but realistic.
As a non-gamer, I have no addiction to buying games and don't settle for anything, nor believe I'm obligated to be thankful for whatever, nor obligated to look past the crap (rather than the older title's rewarding the player so much the flaws are truly overwhelmed, not thorns in the side, poking incessantly) to just accept the game for what it is. The older titles needed no such mindset, save for the next-gen market always craving the new and mocking the past. I have a right to be pessimistic about a dumbing down of the minds of my fellow human beings. It is sad and no one should just go with that swirling brain-drain, and feed an industry that caters to the dumb who have a hankerin' for mindless flash and no depth.
Eshaktaar on 19/11/2009 at 00:13
Hey, I'm skeptic, too, but I don't go obsessing over an intentionally misspelled Thief logo as if it were a clear indicator for the game's inevitable failure.
Why don't we just relax and wait until we get something more tangible?
jtr7 on 19/11/2009 at 03:20
The obsession is also misunderstood. It's returning to the one image they've shown us and it symbolizes very well our legitimate concerns. There's little difference between poking at the logo and participating with any earnestness on these fora.
Oh and:
Quote Posted by René
Quote Posted by Ashpolt
Also, lol at the fact EM are still using the "Thi4f" logo. Common sense would've scrapped that ages ago....P
Well, when you print a few hundred stickers, you gotta use 'em! But like we've said before, the next time you hear about Thief, you likely won't see that logo any more...
From: (
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?p=1219454#post1219454)
Beleg Cúthalion on 19/11/2009 at 13:28
Quote Posted by jtr7
You seriously don't understand
skepticism? Pessimism doesn't spring from nothing, you know.
I understand skepticism as something reserved, while what you call skepticisim over here is basically belaboring every little hint which
could turn out to cover something about which the
fans in general wouldn't be so happy. Skepticism would mean something neutral but while all the bashing around here is only rarely countered with optimism, almost all "good news" are countered with actual pessimism. And when I think about how people criticised lots of elements in TDS which simply stood in the shadow of greater mistakes, I simply cannot believe that anyone (not even I!) would play Thief 4 without searching for faults like a paranoid. And
this would be very discouraging for me as a developer.
jtr7 on 19/11/2009 at 13:34
Like they don't know already?
You have mistaken goofy over-the-top toying by bored fanatics as included in the gross pessimism.
A lot of the repeat "bashers" know it's a temp-logo and use the symbolism of the questionable direction of development it has come to represent as a goad to "remind" the devs we'll have no more such shenanigans. You are no different for worrying overmuch about the bashers' silliness, and you aren't helping the devs with that, either. They aren't FM makers building FMs alone and without pay, who need encouragement 'cause people don't like the one screenshot they showed them, for instance. They've been going through the Deus Ex 3 fan-rage for a couple of years, and they're too intelligent and mature and paid to be crushed by fanboy whiners, eh?
New Horizon on 19/11/2009 at 13:43
Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion
And
this would be very discouraging for me as a developer.
As we learned, it's part of the job. You put your head down and keep working. If you're passionate about what you're doing, the comments won't mean as much as the work you're producing.
jtr7 on 19/11/2009 at 19:38
As it should be. Works for me. I don't share anything I'm not ready to hear criticism about, especially if I've poured myself into it.
And as you know, NH, no matter how many times you give a disclaimer ("It's a WIP, so there will be errors, and rest assured, we already know about most of them..." :laff:), people will blow on past it and say something that misses the point, misunderstands, or is unhelpful no matter the motive, kind or malicious.:p
Scots Taffer on 25/11/2009 at 04:18
Wow, the Onionbob tags are making it this far abroad, eh?
Someone really has too much time on their idle little girl hands.
