SubJeff on 6/6/2009 at 01:41
The 1st person movement mechanic is Thief was a triumph in every way and so Spandex you either didn't "get" the immersion in Thief 1 and 2, didn't play them long enough to get it or are one of those people who cannot experience certain things like specific tastes. Too bad.
New Horizon on 6/6/2009 at 03:00
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
The 1st person movement mechanic is Thief was a triumph in every way and so Spandex you either didn't "get" the immersion in Thief 1 and 2, didn't play them long enough to get it or are one of those people who cannot experience certain things like specific tastes. Too bad.
Considering he's suggesting Thief be an action platform, there is certainly something he's not getting.
Why is it that people come along, name off a list of games that do all these things that Thief doesn't do...and 'still' they don't get it. :tsktsk: It's the minimalism that makes Thief unique. It has nothing to do with nostalgia. We know the games were flawed, but not because of minimalism. If people can come in here and list off a dozen games that all do this, that, and the other thing...it's pretty clear that Thief does NOT need to do it too....otherwise, it's no longer Thief, it would just be every other game out there.
As we have learned on Dark Mod, there is plenty of room to improve the Thief game mechanics, without bloating them and making them like every other game out there. Garrett doesn't need to be an acrobat, because he isn't one. Thief was about the anti-hero...and also the anti-first person shooter. It's not about playing fast and furious. It's about playing slowly and methodically. It's about being weak and fragile. About skills of sneaking and stealing.
If people are here pining for Thief to be like Assassin's creed, go buy six or ten more copies of Assassin's Creed so they make another sequel to that for you. If there is going to be another Thief game, I WANT a real Thief game and not some Frankenstein bullshit with parts tacked on that totally go against what Thief is.
Captain Spandex on 6/6/2009 at 07:09
When did I ever suggest that Thief should be an action game? In your book, Assassin's Creed is an action game, I guess, and I suppose a cogent argument could be made for that, but it really is - at the end of the day - a stealth game in the truest sense. At any rate, Thief doesn't need to do any of those things, you're correct.
However, suggesting that Garrett should be capable of jumping more than five inches in the air is hardly pushing for Thief to become an action game. Splinter Cell's main character - a man well into his fifties - is more mobile than Garrett. That's saying something. I would call the Splinter Cell series 'subdued', despite Sam Fisher's perfectly realistic athletic feats. Putting Garrett in a third-person perspective isn't going to mean he's suddenly firing a rocket launcher at Metal Gear, is it? Especially given the platforming potential inherent in a medieval rooftop setting, you really need to let go of this first-person thing. It's just too clunky and even in Mirror's Edge, it's unwieldy and barely functional at times. If anything, first-person should be the afterthought... not the other way around.
...and posting Yahtzee videos...? Not helping your cause.
jay pettitt on 6/6/2009 at 08:16
N.H.'s 'cause' being to sit pretty and put his feet up... At this stage he doesn't need to convince anyone, you included, of the merits and popularity of 1st person perspective in Thief. Those are clear to see from the discussions and polls here and elsewhere. The overwhelming popularity of 1st person would seem to suggest that it is far from being an 'outdated' mechanic, despite your protests.
Personally I find the combination of 1st person perspective and movement in Thief to be elegant, flexible and deeply immersing. I'm sure there is some scope for evolutionary improvements, but I would be very sceptical of the dubious benefits that may come from the revolutionary changes you suggest. While I'm sure Splinter Cell and Assassins creed have their merits and are worthwhile pursuits in their own little way, they do not have Thief's merits, and I'm afraid I am rather fond of how Thief does its thing.
It's a shame you don't like 1st person games, but I can't help not thinking anything else other than, oh well that's a shame. Thief may not be the best choice for you. Happily, there are lots of 3rd person games, I hope you can take some consolation from that.
SubJeff on 6/6/2009 at 09:26
Spandex - I fully agree with the notion that Garrett should be more mobile. I'd like him to be able to jump and mantle in a more realistic way and I think TDM has improved the moment alot.
But I 3rd person is not the preferred option around here and we just have to accept the differences in opinion. To call it a "flawed design choice" is just wrong. 1st person in Mirrors Edge is great and very immersive. Have you seen the 3rd person hack? Its looks terrible not because of the rough animations but because the feeling of "being there" is gone.
Platinumoxicity on 6/6/2009 at 11:14
Quote Posted by Captain Spandex
However, suggesting that Garrett should be capable of jumping more than five inches in the air is hardly pushing for Thief to become an action game. Splinter Cell's main character - a man well into his fifties - is more mobile than Garrett. That's saying something. I would call the Splinter Cell series 'subdued', despite Sam Fisher's perfectly realistic athletic feats. Putting Garrett in a third-person perspective isn't going to mean he's suddenly firing a rocket launcher at Metal Gear, is it? Especially given the platforming potential inherent in a medieval rooftop setting, you really need to let go of this first-person thing. It's just too clunky and even in Mirror's Edge, it's unwieldy and
barely functional at times. If anything, first-person should be the afterthought... not the other way around.
Barely functional, yes. The reason why the movement in Thief is so basic and simple is because, usually when there's a tricky maneuver that you need to execute, let's say the wall-jump, it's got a button combination that you need to press in order to execute the move. In a game where every surface makes a sound and you need to remain quiet, there's no room for mistakes where you execute the move slightly wrong and fall to the ground. With a special move comes a certain margin of success and you are never quite sure of your own actions. Thief's movements are very simple only because you need to constantly know exactly what your character is doing, and you can prepare for mistakes, and you always know exactly how and why you can come to make those mistakes.
Dia on 6/6/2009 at 14:37
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
N.H.'s 'cause' being to sit pretty and put his feet up... At this stage he doesn't
need to convince anyone, you included, of the merits and popularity of 1st person perspective in Thief. Those are clear to see from the discussions and polls here and elsewhere. The overwhelming popularity of 1st person would seem to suggest that it is far from being an 'outdated' mechanic, despite your protests.
It's a shame you don't like 1st person games, but I can't help not thinking anything else other than, oh well that's a shame. Thief may not be the best choice for you. Happily, there are lots of 3rd person games, I hope you can take some consolation from that.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
But I 3rd person is not the preferred option around here and we just have to accept the differences in opinion. To call it a "flawed design choice" is just wrong. 1st person in Mirrors Edge is great and very immersive. Have you seen the 3rd person hack? Its looks terrible not because of the rough animations but because the feeling of "being there" is gone.
Well said JP & SE. Seconded. And thirded, etc.
Yandros on 6/6/2009 at 15:57
Quote Posted by Captain Spandex
Velvet Assassin is basically a top-to-bottom rip-off of Thief on every level.
After watching (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NzTOfMtc90) this gameplay video on YouTube, I wonder where on earth you got this idea. Looks like a top-to-bottom rip-off of Hitman to me. Which makes it nothing at all like Thief.
jermi on 6/6/2009 at 17:14
He meant a rip-off of TDS. And that's very telling.
Beleg Cúthalion on 6/6/2009 at 18:31
One day I'll write a computer game where I can shoot authors of undifferentiated, unobjective and short-sighted comments. And I'll it From Dusk till Dawkins or something.
