First person third person or both

Captain Spandex on 7/6/2009 at 03:11

Quote Posted by Beleg Cúthalion

One day I'll write a computer game where I can shoot authors of undifferentiated, unobjective and short-sighted comments. And I'll it From Dusk till Dawkins or something.

I recommend How to Sidestep Arguments With Merit by Clinging to Pointless Minutiae. Working title.

Frankly, I'm surprised your arms have room, with how desperately the neckbeards on this forum cling to the tired formula of Thief 1 and 2 all the time.

TheGrimSmile on 7/6/2009 at 03:42

Now hold on a second.

First, I don't think using terms like "neckbeard" is really needed. Aside from the fact that I had to look it up, it's really kind of rude :/

Anyway, compared to a lot of the people on this forum, I'm pretty young, and played a lot of later games before I really got into Thief. Still, I don't find 1st person outdated. It could be improved, sure, but that's no reason to do away with it altogether. Just my two cents from a younger set of players.

I don't see what your arguement is, really. Assassin's Creed was a stealth game, sure, but not at all in the same sense that Thief is. That's why you can't climb buildings in Thief, or fight off 20 soldiers in five minutes. I don't find it really a fair arguement to compare them when there is really nothing to compare.

On a seperate note, 3rd person, I feel, destroyed one of the things about Thief that I really love. I didn't hate TDS as much as some of the people here did, and that comes from not fully playing the first two Thief games beforehand. Still, I noticed that all of the levels were very... flat. Even without comparing them to the first two games, I find that stealth and 3rd person don't really mix.

Due to the fact the 3rd person requires a more open enviroment to work, it blotched out the possibility of tunnels and other tight spaces. I loved those things about Thief, and I hardly saw them in TDS. Again, this is not a comparison, but something I just noticed.

The point of this all is, I don't think the severe stealth gameplay of Thief can really mix with 3rd person.

Beleg Cúthalion on 7/6/2009 at 07:10

I was referring to jermi's IMHO unfounded and sort of convulsive TDS objection while the game had as far as I can see not been mentioned in Spandex's posts and neither can I see any link between this Ex-Sabotage 1943 game and TDS right now that would justify the post.

And please don't take the shooting thing to seriously, I even despise comedians or cabaret artists who make unfounded jokes although one might say they are allowed to exaggerate. Oh, and of course I'm still sick from dealing with Dawkins et alii for half a year.

Chade on 7/6/2009 at 23:34

Quote Posted by TheGrimSmile

On a seperate note, 3rd person, I feel, destroyed one of the things about Thief that I really love ... Still, I noticed that all of the levels were very... flat. Even without comparing them to the first two games, I find that stealth and 3rd person don't really mix.

Due to the fact the 3rd person requires a more open enviroment to work, it blotched out the possibility of tunnels and other tight spaces. I loved those things about Thief, and I hardly saw them in TDS.

Here's another argument that is getting tossed out here without a lot of justification. I don't believe there is any fundamental difference in the architecture of T1/2 and T3.

There are tunnels and tight environments in T3. And the levels aren't flat. There's just as much vertical differentiation as in the earlier titles.

If you want to convince me otherwise, you'll need to provide some more evidence. Can you list and compare the levels between the games?

SubJeff on 8/6/2009 at 00:42

Guys, Spandex isn't real yo. He's a parody of a forum member or a just a an alt nik for troll purposes. Destroy, ignore, forget, whatever.

Dante on 8/6/2009 at 02:04

Quote Posted by Captain Spandex

But that's no argument for stagnancy. Just watch Assassin's Creed in action. Wouldn't it be great to have Garrett similarly free to move?

This has probably been covered already, but no. The whole point of Garrett is that he isn't a damn acrobat; he isn't fast, he isn't terribly agile (hell, he takes ten damn minutes to mantle a seven-foot ledge), and he most certainly isn't one to against all odds climb up Burj Dubai with his bare (fine, gloved) hands. Garrett's strengths are his experience, his guile, and his practiced understanding of how to mesh with the shadows, not his high-flying dexterity.

Quote:

You do realize that Garrett had exactly two physical 'modes', correct?

You're gonna squabble about this, huh? Okay, tonight go put on some black sports clothes and sneak around someone's backyard. Sorry, but rolling, hopping on one foot, and doing the worm are not efficient ways to move unseen. Plain old walking is.

Captain Spandex on 8/6/2009 at 05:19

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

Guys, Spandex isn't real yo. He's a parody of a forum member or a just a an alt nik for troll purposes. Destroy, ignore, forget, whatever.

Right.

A troll who registered and began posting here half a decade ago based on the vague premonition that one day I might have the opportunity to disagree with someone anonymously over the internet.

Honestly, if I get a Thief 4 game that is entirely in first person, I doubt I'll complain unless it's stiff. That's all I'm trying to avoid. 1, 2, and 3 are great games, but they are great in spite of themselves. Any time I introduce a friend to the series, the first thing I hear is "Man, climbing ladders is a bitch" or "Why is this guy so slow?" It's an obstruction that the series is going to have to clear if we want it to continue being relevant.

SubJeff on 8/6/2009 at 08:25

Well I never see you post and your profile says 32 posts in however many years so you'll forgive me if I come to the conclusion that you only pipe up now and then, and this time its to rail against the norm in this forum.

You're obviously a fan of Assassins Creed, which is fine, but your view of Thief is a little out of line with most of the Thief fans here. It doesn't matter what your friends think - lots of my gameplaying friends would say the same and wouldn't like Thief. Fans of Thief 1 and 2 loved them the way they were. You understand why Thief 3 was a letdown in many ways to fans of the first two, right? I'm not saying its a bad game, but imho it didn't live up to the others, that's all.

One of the issues with it, to many (not all) fans, was the 3rd person. 3rd person in TDS lead to a number of problems. Movement mechanic changes (a lean which is a sidestep that both reveals you and can make you fall of edges, come on man that was rubbish), potential to "cheat" (though I ended up using this instead of the broken lean, oh the irony!) and level design changes.

For me 1st person is just more immersive. You cannot have experienced that aspect and this, I'm afraid, is your problem. Most people love 1st person because of it, and its so clear that this is the point in Mirror's Edge; you having missed it suggests your brain just isn't wired up to it just like mine isn't geared up to hardcore math. Tough. Luck.

New Horizon on 8/6/2009 at 12:33

Quote Posted by Captain Spandex

Right.
Any time I introduce a friend to the series, the first thing I hear is "Man, climbing ladders is a bitch" or "Why is this guy so slow?" It's an obstruction that the series is going to have to clear if we want it to continue being relevant.

:laff:

I think this is the funniest thing I've ever read.

Perhaps Garrett seems slow to them because most games are run and gun? Speeding up Garrett isn't the answer. I thought Garrett was slow when I first started playing way back in the late nineties too, but I had the common sense to understand why the character didn't need to speed up, it was me who needed to slow down...mentally. As I've said earlier, making Thief like other games to supposedly 'fix' it...is simply wrong. There is nothing wrong with Thief. It's a different type of game, you can't compare it to the majority of 'expected gaming conventions'...it was designed to go against those conventions. Thief was...and is...the anti First Person Shooter, it's the First Person Sneaker. If there was ever a game that is as relevant today as it was 10 years ago, it's the original Thief, because it dared to be different in a market of clones. I sure hope to hell the developers at EM have enough insight into the game not to tack on a bunch of rubbish. I hope they have the guts to stay true to what Thief is and really knock a game out that goes against all the conventions of today's gaming market. I doubt it though. From the few snippets I've read, this development studio seems to be in the same mindset of 'how can we un-Thief...Thief'.

Yandros on 8/6/2009 at 13:51

Quote Posted by New Horizon

Speeding up Garrett isn't the answer. I thought Garrett was slow when I first started playing way back in the late nineties too, but I had the common sense to understand why the character didn't need to speed up, it was me who needed to slow down...mentally. As I've said earlier, making Thief like other games to supposedly 'fix' it...is simply wrong. There is nothing wrong with Thief. It's a different type of game, you can't compare it to the majority of 'expected gaming conventions'...it was designed to go against those conventions.

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