First person third person or both

SubJeff on 18/6/2009 at 15:25

Quote Posted by Captain Spandex

#1 - Odd that you would say Deadly Shadows had too few constrained, claustrophobic environments, whereas one of the main complaints levelled at the game was that its environments were too small and had to be separated by loading times.

You're showing a fundamental lack of understanding here.

The load zones would have existed with or without claustrophobic environments because limits on level size is a totally different issue to limits on level design.

I'm not dismissing 3rd person offhand, and that is why I split my list into general issues and those specific to TDS. You'll notice I included the movement issue in the TDS section because of course I can accept that 3rd person doesn't automatically mean poor movement. You can have hands and head movement whilst picking locks without 3rd person implemented btw.

My stance on cheating by looking around corners stands. I don't care what other games do - it's not relevant. Thief is the purest stealth game and cheats like that are just silly.

jay pettitt has explained and addressed my point on lighting. Thanks jay.

Finally - I recognise that it is perfectly possible to create a 3rd person option that does not mess with the 1st person one. But the likelyhood of this happening is next to nil. Its hard enough for a dev to get things right in any case. Thief 1 and 2 were tight though, there were very few flaws that broke the game, that broke the immersion. With current tech more fancy stuff should be possible - just look at The Dark Mod and the crazy (and cool) rope physics there. Implementing all this stuff takes time and effort and each new feature potentially affects others. The TDM team are not implementing 3rd person because it would be too much effort and, more importantly, is not necessary nor desirable in this type of game.

And that, I think you'll find, is what the bottom line comes down to.

Platinumoxicity on 18/6/2009 at 17:24

If the levels are designed for 1st person like Thief 1, you'll see these differences:

For example, the kitchen in "Lord Bafford's manor". The ceiling is so low that 3rd person mode would restrict the player's vision. Also the confined spaces in poor civilians' apartments would have the same problem.

These areas, when designed for 3rd person mode would have high ceilings (Poor people don't have those) and wide open areas with more room between furniture. (No-one would furnish a house like that)

The buildings in T1 and T2 had smaller rooms, hallways and doors because they didn't have to take the 3rd person mode into account. Even the walkways in alleys were more narrow. Everything was designed for humans, not giants.

Kin on 18/6/2009 at 17:49

Quote:

For example, the kitchen in "Lord Bafford's manor". The ceiling is so low that 3rd person mode would restrict the player's vision. Also the confined spaces in poor civilians' apartments would have the same problem

This is so damn serious. I hope the devs have realised that there is no place for third person.
As I said before this is why I hate 3rd person view even simply by existing in game without using it. It is just that the game has to be build accordingly to that view also.

BrendaEM on 30/6/2009 at 13:48

I think that the one really good thing that Thief DS did, was bring first person, but being able to see your arms, and what you are holding, which greatly enhanced the immersion factor, just the same as the character shadows.

Bulgarian_Taffer on 1/7/2009 at 17:41

I just tried to play Thief in 3d person (TDS) and frankly, I couldn't. Thief should be 1st person. You are playing as Garrett. You ARE Garrett.

mcnils on 1/7/2009 at 22:37

I know i'm swimming against the stream here, but i appreciated the third person view in TDS.

I dont say first person should be abolished, absolutely not, but i like to have the option to see my avatar. In my opinion third person also facilitates the acrobatic parts of the game, again i love to see what my character is doing. I could pass on third person view if they implemented a proper first person, like Mirror's Edge, where the player model is not just a floating arm and a bobbing head. But then i'm coming from an RPG background, i realize that the more FPSy people might not concur, although i think both schools can coexist, think of jumping from one rooftop to the other, taking the thieves highway, and then switching perspective to, lets say, snipe with the bow, or scout out an area, a la Assassin's Creed.

Platinumoxicity on 2/7/2009 at 11:01

Quote Posted by mcnils

Then how do you think they should fix the problem of the 3rd person camera being too close to the character when you're for example, in a narrow and low hallway or a tunnel? What if you're in a room with many bookcases that are so close to eachother that only 1 person can stand in between? If you're in a poor man's apartment where all the furniture are very close to eachother, the room is small and the ceiling is low? The camera will be pointing to the back of Garrett's head or get obstructed by ceiling lamps all the time. How do you think that problem could be solved? I think that the devs would want to know that.

mcnils on 2/7/2009 at 13:42

I think its the Devs job to figure that out, not mine ^^ I just said the perspectives could be changing on the fly, depending on what you do. They could change in a narrow space, Garrett can become slightly see through, i dont think it is a thing of the trickster to make it work, just a matter of how the camera is handled.

Dia on 2/7/2009 at 13:53

Quote Posted by mcnils

I just said the perspectives could be changing on the fly, depending on what you do. They could change in a narrow space, Garrett can become slightly see through, i dont think it is a thing of the trickster to make it work, just a matter of how the camera works.

I would find that highly annoying! If my character was in the middle of some action and suddenly the POV switched from 1st to 3rd person it would just end up being disorienting and irritating. Something similar happened in some of the Tomb Raider games and I didn't appreciate the sudden (involuntary) POV switch then either. That kind of switch made it hard to get your bearings and I remember constantly having to back up & re-do that section.

Personally, I found 3rd person in TDS to be much less immersive and the actual gameplay much more awkward and cumbersome than 1st person view.

mcnils on 2/7/2009 at 14:53

Example, agreed, its far fetched from a proper Stealth game, its more about Stealth Kills than anything, but Tenchu has third person perspective. Metal Gear Solid has third person perspective (and a VERY sucky first person, Thief is miles ahead in this regard). These are all very old franchises and together with Thief they defined the now broad stealth genre. I know some of you will cry murder but i liked these titles very much, all for their own merits. Another example, and now i'm really going to alienate the lot of you, Oblivion, or Fallout 3, they all have third perspective options for the player. Are they ideal to be played in third perspective? No, but a lot of players like to. It is, once again, about leaving options open. I really dont think that with the advancements in videogame developement and the software & hardware technologies we have today there have to be any limitations for anybody if not those we cast upon ourselves because of preference. You like first person? stick to it. You like third person? Stick to it! You enjoy using both? Do it. Its not like Thief is a competitive multiplayer game (shame on me if it will be) where if you use 3rd person you have an unfair advantage over somebody that uses 1st person exclusively. There is some serious narrow sightedness (pun intended) in this thread, but then, everybody is entitled to an opinion! ^^ And one is not necessarily exclusive of the other.