jtr7 on 27/6/2011 at 01:26
Correct. What he's doing is avoiding the actions that auto-switch the view. There is no option to turn off 3rd-Person in DX:HR, only avoiding the actions that trigger them, when reasonable to do so. This means that certain attacks and with certain weapons are 3rd-Person only, not available in 1st. It also means the animations are given precedence, which is what TDS did wrong and hurt 1st-Person in the process, anchoring the camera to animations that look okay from 3rd-Person, but show the rough key-framing in 1st and jerk the camera around uncomfortably.
Rga_Noris on 27/6/2011 at 04:14
Quote Posted by jtr7
That's not it at all. Those labels will apply to you if you won't see past that and realize people's brains work differently. What doesn't bother you at all, and is merely different use of visual styles, is jarring and frustrating and distracting for others. Same with flashing graphics, large or numerous HUD graphics, visual noise and clutter, bloom, fast-twitch situations, and other personally-incompatible design choices that take away the enjoyment for certain persons.
What you mistake for fundamentalism is simply the fact that the games we are fans of we are fans of for not having those qualities, or fewer of them, or can be modded out without breaking the game or creating a cheat. Thief is attractive to me for not imposing common aesthetics that I cannot ignore to the detriment of my entertainment. It has nothing to do with you and what you like. If Thief 4 is made like a Thief game, and the additional stuff to appeal to the masses is optional, not imposed, then there won't be the problem. In the meantime, we have been solicited for our opinions by EM, and therefore, will express our hopes for at least one game for this decade that is not full of expected incompatible aesthetics unlike the games we enjoy. Can we have one game, please? Just one more?
I think you are confusing me for someone who likes third person... I don't. You make some other good points, though.
It boils down to this (well, at least what I am saying does): I will be far more excited for a first person game... if it comes out in third person, it better be fantastic to make up for that, or it needs to be executed extremely well, which it can be.
Fundamentalism in this case does apply. If a game is good, really good, and a person does not play it for the sole belief that third person perspective makes it impossible to be as such, then they are, indeed, close minded. Essentially people are saying that, due to past bad experiences, all third person games (or third person Thief games) cannot be good, or worth their money. The same though process could be applied to ethnicity in humans.
If someone picks up the game, and the third person perspective is indeed cumbersome, un-immersive, and all around bad, then they are justified. But if EM manages to make a third person game with immersion and fluid controls, then forsaking the title on principal alone is just silly.
jtr7 on 27/6/2011 at 07:42
Wrong. It's not close-mindedness at all. It's knowing that certain visual styles are jarring to certain individuals, every single time. We are not talking about preferences or unknowns, but tried and true empirical knowledge of the self. I hope I don't have to start coming up with weak analogies, like, how certain people have allergies and it's not closed-minded of them to avoid those things that cause a reaction (even though people do treat them as closed-minded, eh?), or how trying to watch a movie is made difficult by a screaming baby or an obnoxious drunk or someone kicking the back of your seat, and how a lot of action-movie shaky-cam is not enjoyable for many, nor are 3D glasses (giving some a headache, and others don't have use enough of both eyes to see the effect when a standard 2D screening is not a problem for them), or how people may hate a certain food most others love and so they have to customize the preparation for themselves while others roll their eyes, or how flashing colors can cause epileptic seizures and so the individuals need to show caution in what they watch. Are ya getting it, yet? :mad:
dexterward on 27/6/2011 at 10:15
Quote Posted by jtr7
What he's doing is
avoiding the actions that auto-switch the view. There is no option to turn off 3rd-Person in DX:HR, only avoiding the actions that trigger them, when reasonable to do so.
Oh :( This is terrible news - I thought the guy knew what he`s talking about - I mean ok, I see what he`s dun dere, but then he shouldn`t say 3rd person IS OPTIONAL (in capitals) when it`s only optional by the way of a gimmicky exercise.
Quote Posted by jtr7
It's knowing that certain visual styles are jarring to certain individuals, every single time.
So it is, unfortunately. I can`t stand 3rd person in FPP games - it`s just wrong. One of the Mysteries Of the Universe recently is why on earth did they made me snap out to 3rd when I sit on some stool in FO3...arrghh (strangely it doesn`t bother me as much in VATS, but it`s more like replay)
It`s strange how things turned out (again)...back in the days when 3D FPP first appeared I thought it`s supremacy over any other perspective is obvious and will take over the world....
Of course 3rdPP works a treat in many games (that are not FPP ;) - but even so, I always think "hmmm wouldn`t it be great if they..."
nbohr1more on 28/6/2011 at 00:03
3rd person is a suitable perspective for:
1) Remakes of 2.5D pseudo 3D games like Golden Axe, Zaxxon, Paperboy, Marble Madness
2) Remakes of 3D sprite scaling games like Space Harrier or Outrun
3) Space combat games like Star Wars: Rouge Squadron
4) Platform games ala Mario 64, Prince of Persia, even Assassin's Creed
5) (granted exception) Resident Evil 4 (which uses a well designed lock-in mechanic for enemy targeting)
If a "Thief" title came out and had any of the above, it might be really fun... but it would be painfully disappointing to fans craving more of what they saw in Thief 1 & 2.
Now someone will post that old "Thief Cart" pic... :sweat:
dexterward on 28/6/2011 at 11:11
Hmmm wouldn`t it be great if they...made Golden Axe FPP or Paperboy? Rad!
was there no FPP in Outrun/Rogue Squadron?
Pyrian on 29/6/2011 at 01:14
Quote Posted by Rga_Noris
If T4 came out and received rave reviews from everyone, you would not touch it at all for the simple fact that it was third person only?
Rave reviews don't really have anything to do with it. There are plenty of perfectly good games with excellent reviews that I don't play because I don't like those kinds of games. You talk about this like it's some theoretical exercise, when the reality is that there are plenty of highly reviewed third person games out there. This isn't a hypothetical, this is water under the bridge.
Quote Posted by Rga_Noris
Well, I guess there are some stubborn fundamentalist around here. Very close minded. Very arrogant.
I know this is TTLG, but devolving into personal insult isn't helping your argument.
Quote Posted by Rga_Noris
Fundamentalism in this case does apply. If a game is good, really good, and a person does not play it for the sole belief that third person perspective makes it impossible to be as such, then they are, indeed, close minded. Essentially people are saying that, due to past bad experiences, all third person games (or third person Thief games) cannot be good, or worth their money.
You don't seem to get it at all. Third person is stylistically distinct, and cannot be compensated for by being good in other ways. You can make the world's best ever dance game, and if I don't want to play a dance game, I'm not going to buy it (yes that comparison is hyperbole, but given that you clearly don't get that I'm talking about a
categorical difference I think it's justified). Third person is
not "the same thing just from a different view" (even though it can be programmed that way).
Quote Posted by Rga_Noris
The same though process could be applied to ethnicity in humans.
Horseshit. And fuck you, you ignorant jackass. Peppering your dumb rants with personal insults directed at those who disagree with you is kind of par for the course around here, but this was over the line as far as I'm concerned. A person isn't better or worse or even particularly different based on the color of their skin, so no, it can't.
Quote Posted by Rga_Noris
If someone picks up the game, and the third person perspective is indeed cumbersome, un-immersive, and all around bad, then they are justified.
You've missed the point entirely. As I keep saying. There are plenty of third person games out there with perfectly good controls. The fact that Deadly Shadows controlled clumsily isn't the issue, except in your weird strawman mind where everybody who disagrees with you is just bitter about that old saw and has never actually played any other games that don't have that problem.
Quote Posted by Rga_Noris
...forsaking the title on principal alone...
Once again, principle doesn't have anything to do with it. That's just another one of your many strawmen.
Rga_Noris on 30/6/2011 at 01:52
Quote:
Rave reviews don't really have anything to do with it. There are plenty of perfectly good games with excellent reviews that I don't play because I don't like those kinds of games. You talk about this like it's some theoretical exercise, when the reality is that there are plenty of highly reviewed third person games out there. This isn't a hypothetical, this is water under the bridge.
Yeup. I do not like third person games in general either, save Hitman. I tend to avoid them. But, I love Thief. I am willing to investigate and see if I like it, even if it was third person only. You are not, based on your past experiences, so fine. I just see that as a missed chance for a good time.
Quote:
I know this is TTLG, but devolving into personal insult isn't helping your argument.
Yet you freely decorate your argument with them? I admit it was not helpful, but I still feel that disregarding a game based on past experiences is close minded in that one regard, and that is okay. You're not close minded as a person in general (well, you could be, but I don't know you), just in regards to gaming. If it is third person, you will have none of it, regardless of how it is played or any other content within it.
Quote:
You don't seem to get it at all. Third person is stylistically distinct, and cannot be compensated for by being good in other ways. You can make the world's best ever dance game, and if I don't want to play a dance game, I'm not going to buy it (yes that comparison is hyperbole, but given that you clearly don't get that I'm talking about a categorical difference I think it's justified). Third person is not "the same thing just from a different view" (even though it can be programmed that way).
Your point here is spoken as fact, yet clearly opinion. Take Morrowind, TDS or Oblivion for example: You can play the same game in the same manner in both third and first person. Third gives some advantages (seeing around corners, and directly behind you), but the game does not switch categories based on the perspective. There IS, without a doubt, a difference in gameplay between the two perspectives, but not to the level you claim. So your dance game analogy is off base.
Quote:
Horseshit. And fuck you, you ignorant jackass. Peppering your dumb rants with personal insults directed at those who disagree with you is kind of par for the course around here, but this was over the line as far as I'm concerned. A person isn't better or worse or even particularly different based on the color of their skin, so no, it can't.
This is where I lose you. You seem to think I have some how called someone racist, or am racist myself. Racism and stereotypes are based on past experiences applied to all members of a certain ethnicity. You are basing if you will enjoy a third person game on past experiences with them... The point of this analogy was NOT to say that you would value a person in the same manner, but rather this: In both cases, applying past opinions may allow you to avoid an unpleasant experience, but you usually just miss out on something wonderful.
Quote:
You've missed the point entirely. As I keep saying. There are plenty of third person games out there with perfectly good controls. The fact that Deadly Shadows controlled clumsily isn't the issue, except in your weird strawman mind where everybody who disagrees with you is just bitter about that old saw and has never actually played any other games that don't have that problem.
You seem upset that you repeated yourself... you do realize that with the above paragraph you are responding to the same post twice, right? You did indeed already address that point in your post earlier... you chose to restate yourself, without giving me a chance to ignore it the first time.
You are perfectly entitled to not like any third person game. You don't need a reason, either. But don't be too upset or surprised if others find it odd that you see such a large difference between third person games and first person games, when so many offer both.
But yeah, I get it. Sure, saying those that absolutely will not touch a third person game are arrogant was a little much, and not needed. So I'll apologize there. As for you, dont through too many stones:
Quote:
And fuck you, you ignorant jackass.
your dumb rants
your weird strawman mind
Goldmoon Dawn on 30/6/2011 at 02:55
Hi. :)
In case you missed it, and for some reason noone is coming out and just saying it: We are fans of Thief: The Dark Project from way back. Thief was a classic game that used 1st person view. Deadly came along and was not only a mockery of the core fan base, but had the audacity to use what we loved as the basis for a scam aimed at scraping the bottom of the barrel to see if there were any more dollar bills clinging down there. The 3rd person console view completely shattered the core 1st person Thief experience with broken movement. So you can bet that the mere mention of a Thief IV will get a certain percentage of folks around here pissed.
