Galaer on 1/11/2021 at 09:23
@klatremus:
Mission 1:1. I said that, but actually I didn't profit from that as I could only douse torches when thieves move forward otherwise I would be noticed and attacked. So these doused torches helped after the fight to sneak through town and marketplace. Also I did that in order to protect thieves from dying, not to kill more. Read my report more carefully. Plus for ghosting I can douse torches and leave door opened whenever I want. It's when supreme ghosting I can't do that. Plus I find the whole rule very unclear. I thought it only means when opening doors, which leads to immediate fight that will profit me. Opening door to Hammerite HQ don't cause any fight between entrance guard and patrolling guards. Dousing torches is also allowed for regular ghost. I could do that before thieves attack, it would still change the outcome. Thieves would get killed faster and it wouldn't be in my favor, but I guess you would still call it manipulation of AI, right. Or I could put crates to block some passages and it would also change the outcome of the fight. I'm sorry to say, but with your current interpretation of this rule, difficulty of regular ghost becomes way too similar to supreme ghosting.
I missed in your video alternate entrance to Hammerite HQ. Had I know that I would definitely skip triggering thieves attack as loot gained in town is completely optional. I also would be even more careful with avoiding killing after triggering Gem of Oldorf. That's also the reason that I doused torch in front of Vault - to minimize casualties. You will probably still call it a bust - manipulation, but I disagree as my prime target was to deal with Gem of Oldorf silently without any casualties.
In answer to my post about mission 1 fight you said that even if you wanted shopkeeper to die, you didn't manipulate thieves to kill him. But that's a BS, because you had route to enter Hammerite HQ without triggering thieves fight. This means you only triggered this event to loot Mining Town and the only way to do that was by killing shopkeeper and barkeeper. You also wanted to kill guards from marketplace, so you could exit Hammerite HQ safely. And you were ready to replay this even and use save and loads to get your desirable outcome. If it was only for loot, you could ignore this event and go directly to Hammerite HQ. This would mean you could normally walk through marketplace without any body lying around. But you did everything, so thieves could kill certain AIs. Also in your run you stole Barracks keys from patrolling archers, so it forced them to stand in front of Hammerite HQ door. You excused that, but outcome is that they were forced into become part of big fight. That's also manipulation of AI. In my run I didn't stole their keys, so they never got involved into fight and survived.
As for wording - unlike you I'm not scared to use word manipulation. By saving and loading you can manipulate movements of enemies and the kills. You may allowed that technique, but it doesn't mean that suddenly it's not AI manipulation. Personally I would prefer that manipulation of fight should be allowed for regular ghost. Why? Well, it is already allowed other manipulation of AI. So I don't see why manipulating these fights through other methods than saving and loading should be forbidden for regular ghost. Of course nudging AI in order to drown them should still be forbidden. Or putting corpse in front of guards to make them move. That's also I would count as forbidden AI manipulation even though I'm not seen or heard.
2. The problem here is that gate is unfrobbable and there is no key for it, so it's impossible to check if lock is destroyed or not.
Mission 2:1. This crystal I wouldn't call monolith. Bottom of it isn't flat. It rather looks like bigger version of biggest loot crystal dropped after destruction of giant crystal. Plus crystal ceiling covering it may count as this crystal is just a part of giant crystal. Since giant crystal is natural, crystal at the top of ramp is also natural. It's similar case to blue ice crystals from the center of marketplace. They are placed symmetrically, but they hurt in contact, so i don't think they were shaped or placed by human. The only faction that has equipment to modify these crystals are Mechanists, but they are focused on creating something useful, they don't care about making pleasant for the eye objects.
2. I disagree with you. Crystal's destruction may start when you trigger ancient device, but it's not caused by it. I proved that by putting rock on top of it. Since physical contact between magic missiles (created by the device) and crystal at the top of ramp was blocked, it's impossible that it was done by the device. It's very similar situation to crates from Sinister Night. If you drop to Prison from 1st floor, fade out happens and crates under you shatters. But you can very slowly drop on the edge of hole and trigger fade out. crates get destroyed. But Garrett never dropped down, which is the evidence that crates broke on it's own and it counts as a scripted destruction.
Another example: in Insanity Crescendo the intended way to get to certain lever in Catacombs is by blocking lowering portcullis with crate. After using lever, this crate shatters, imitating that portcullis was strong enough to destroy. But in my ghost run I never blocked portcullis with crate and it still shattered, which is again evidence that crate wasn't destroyed by portcullis, but it was just scripted even initiated by pressing lever. But lever has it's own purpose of opening gate to another place. It's not connected in any way with crate. So there is no reason for crate to get destroyed from pressing the lever.
3. You said it yourself in this (
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146197&p=2448745&viewfull=1#post2448745) post that it's allowed. Mask alerted to scripted event activated by invisible trigger (but that's just a mechanic behind that). Mask doesn't alert by hearing or seeing me. This avalanche is triggered by stepping on invisible trigger. By the way, fireball trap in Bonehoard works in the same way. You step on invisible line and it activates. This invisible line is much bigger than avalanche's trigger, but it's still invisible line. And you excuse that even for supreme ghosting.Boulders avalanche is most likely to show how unstable area of this mission is, so it's not caused by anyone (how could Bantar know that we entered this area, he's budy in his lab) and it's not a trap. I don't get it why you call it a trap. It's not triggered by any device or mechanism, it's cause is natural.
klatremus on 2/11/2021 at 00:06
Mission 1
1. I was simply referring to the rules where it says not to cause suicides or melees, which you had previously claimed I was doing when I didn't. It seemed strange then that you doused lights to cause some enemies to win vs the others. Triggering a scripted fight is not violating the rules, whether you call it manipulation or not, neither is saving/reloading. The guards I took keys from would've entered the fight anyway because they patrol back and forth through that area constantly. If thieves ended up in the central cave they would've been alerted. Keeping the guards in the central cave would actually decrease the chances for the thieves to win, which I didn't want. Whether you want manipulation during fights to be allowed or not is beside the point, it's not allowed according to the rules.
2. Exactly, so there is no visible damage...
Mission 2
1-2. I disagree with you on both points. This to me is property damage and a direct result of Garrett's involvement. Scripts that are excused are those where Garrett isn't doing anything, but rather walking into an area, a conversation starts, or where a sequence plays out in a totally different area of the map just to further the story.
3. I just checked the area again and I agree with you now. It's not a trap, but just environmental script. I thought the boulders were meant to kill you, but they are not. Unless you run very fast, it's actually difficult to get killed by them. So their purpose is like you say to show the instability of the cave. They are meant to block this entrance to Bantar's lab. Nice find on how to get past them. How many tries did it take to be able to pass the boulders?
Galaer on 2/11/2021 at 07:10
Mission 1:
1. I will tell you why I'm opposing your interpretation of this rule. This means that you are forced to avoid using tools before and during the fight. So suddenly you can't douse torches, because it will affect the outcome of the future battle. You can't use moss arrow either as it will muffle sound of opposing AI's footsteps, which will affect future battle. You can't nudge people, because it will change their position, so it may involve AI in future battle. You can't leave door opened, because it may involve AI in the future battle. What does that mean? It means that you are enforcing regular ghosters to supreme ghost these areas. If future fight will involve the whole mission and it starts at it's end you suddenly are forced to supreme ghost the whole mission even though you just wanted to do regular ghost run.
And let's not forget that scripted fights are total RNG, so even though it involved certain areas most of the time and you avoided using tools there, fight can always escalate into completely new areas. And if you used tools in these areas, because you never thought the battle will go there, then suddenly it affects the battle. So you are forced to do very careful research of every possible areas where battle can go. This means that suddenly regular ghost becomes more difficult than supreme ghost. That's why I find your demand unreasonable.
Plus using tools, nudging or leaving door opened affects battles in much smaller way than when you manipulate their paths through saving and loading. And about these archers - they don't need to get involved in this battle. In my run they stayed on starting tunnel's path. Due to me being far away they were unable to return back to the marketplace, so they were never involved in this battle. By taking their keys you forced them to fight and die.
Mission 2:
2. Garrett activates ancient device, but ancient device doesn't destroy the crystal, crystal shatters on it's own before magic missiles activated by ancient device will touch crystal. This means that crystal got destroyed without Garrett's involvement, because it was planned by the author to get destroyed. How hard is to understand that?
Remember my question about mine entrance destruction in Scarlet Cascabel Mission 1? You told me to not interpret through technical aspect of what's going on (teleportation), but through how it looks during the gameplay. There damage was done by dynamite triggered by Garrett and it was impossible to block it. There are graphical cues (smoke) and sound cues (loud explosion noise) indicating that explosion happened. Also dynamite was wired to the machine I activated to explode it. Here crystal's destruction is side effect of activating ancient device, but that's technical aspect of what's going on. The fact that damage is visualized by magic missiles and they can be blocked by rock from touching the crystal is evidence that damage of this crystal happens on it's own.
Crystal's destruction could be done by magic missiles, but I blocked this possibility by putting big blue geode on top of the crystal.
Blue rays of hope could destroy crystal if they would pierce through it, but no, they are positioned way above crystal.
Crystal could be destroyed by explosives placed inside it, but no, there is no visible indication that there is any explosion happening.
I made it physically impossible for ancient device to destroy crystal. Of course, if you have any theories how ancient device could cause crystal's destruction, then say it. But know that saying that Garrett activated device by placing 10 talismans isn't enough?
3. A lot of tries was needed as this is total RNG.
klatremus on 4/11/2021 at 00:29
1. You wouldn't bust by following regular ghost rules during your run. If you however manipulate a fight in order to kill certain individuals, you are at least violating the spirit of the rules, and I would imagine most ghosters to want to avoid that. This is a special scenario, as the fight is legally starting from a script, but the rest is out of your hands. If you douse torches in order to sneak through areas before, nobody would say anything against that, but if you construct a scenario by dousing certain torches and opening specific doors in order to make sure specific enemies die, I'd say this violates what the rules are meant to prevent. I do think this is a gray area though, and a little bit up to each player's interpretation. I would never impact the fight in any way, besides saving/reloading, but that's probably because I'm used to Supreme rules more. It's up to your conscience what you do and as you said you didn't benefit from it, so I guess that is ok.
2. No need to be disrespectful. I understand perfectly well what you're saying, I just don't agree. One, I think this is a constructed mechanism that constitutes an intelligent being's property. Two, even if it is destroyed by a script, I don't see how the rules excuse that in this case. To me, Garrett is directly involved in turning on the machine, which at least from a visual perspective destroys the monument. Ok you say the missiles don't destroy it, but what about all the other beams that are emitted from each stone leading up to the 10th one being used? They could easily exert some magical force that ultimately shatters the crystal at the end, something that doesn't function the way a physical weapon perhaps would, but in some other way. This would also be triggered by a script, because those beams are not recognized by the game as a weapon, but that doesn't mean it's not property damage. To me, it still seems like a direct result of Garrett's doing. Scripts are only meant to excuse events that have nothing to do with Garrett, but that occurs simply because you are in a certain area like triggering a conversation or even triggering the boulders falling like explained below. You are perfectly fine to report this as a success though, if that is your preference. I wouldn't have, but sometimes players' interpretations will vary. No problem.
3. I tried this and managed to get past after 5-6 tries. It takes a bit of setup, but not that many attempts once I found the right placement of the stones. I managed to get through without using the geode, but only with 4 smaller rocks. The geode is better because it adds more weight to the force needed to stop the boulders. Nice find this!
I also managed to destroy the boulders getting to the contact book like you did, using only 1 flare. I didn't have any issues alerting any bots like you explained. I went and checked and the worker bot and spider bots were patrolling like normal. Like I said, I will show these methods in an upcoming video.
Galaer on 4/11/2021 at 15:48
@klatremus: Sorry if you feel that I disrespected you, it wasn't my intention that you completely ignoring and deflecting at mer everything I say. Second of all, manipulation of AI fights and also property rights earned by moving natural object in different place or shaping it a bit is something I never heard about. It's weird to not know about some rules as I ghost missions almost 2,5 years. So I checked ghost rules and they also don't say anything about that.
"5. Garrett must not cause suicides of AI or melees that intentionally cause AI to attack each other, with the exception of rule 12."
That's all what this rule says. You aren't allowed for AI to kill himself like when you nudge AI to drown. And you can't initiate fight until it's scripted. There is no restriction about middle of fights. Scripted fights between AIs are neither of these, manipulating of them doesn't lead to any suicide, because AI just kill each other. So when you brought this interpretation that you can't use tools to manipulate the fight, it felt like you just want to smuggle yours supreme ghost rules into regular ghost mode. And when you said that this was always interpreted that way, I felt that you are just attacking me as again there is no such interpretation in the rules. This restriction you use, because supreme ghost mode forbid you to douse any torches or use exploits or leaving doors open. So while I think that using tools during fight isn't in the spirit of supreme ghost, I don't think it hurts spirit of regular ghost.
Also about saving and loading - the fact that after reloading game AI will behave differently can also count as an exploit of Dark Engine. If the outcome would be the same every time, then saving and loading manipulation wouldn't matter. Right now it matters, it feels like an exploit and a really heavy one as you don't only manipulate AI paths, but you also decide who's gonna live and who's gonna die. Like some god.
""No property damage" means no visible damage. Visible damage is when the object is destroyed or appears to be in a different condition than before. For example, if you drop a crate, it makes a noise indicative of damage. This is allowed until the crate actually breaks. The bashing of a door causes visible damage only when the door opens (the lock is broken). Items that disappear from inventory or when used do not count as destroyed. “Property” is defined as something that is fabricated by humans or other intelligent creatures (boards, glass, doors, machines, banners, etc). Natural objects like foliage, boulders, icicles, cobwebs, etc are not considered property and would not bust ghost."
Again there are examples of property and they are objects that just can't be mistaken by anyone as property. Your 9 out of 10 people believing that crystal was slightly modified by human - it's just your believe. I would say that 9 out of 10 people would say this crystal is natural. But based on our discussion it's probably closer to 5 out of 10 believing in one of these theories. And that's one of the problems of your interpretations.
Your interpretation allows player to create lore for every object. This unfortunately may lead to confusion just like our discussion was. Remember these boulder protected Mystic Eyes? They are immune to fire until you free Dities, so maybe these boulders are really Dities property. What about boulders blocking path to Contact Book? You said it's Bantar's work, I thought you just mistook him with Zilfin, but maybe you had some idea that Bantar could do that. I said it was probably due to bad condition of this room. But there is no evidence to disprove any of these theories. What about boulders blocking path in Mine? Both of as mentioned that it was cave-in, but somebody else could come and say "No, these boulders has been placed by Bantar's minions to protect his lair". Again, it's possible.
What about other rocks appearing in the tunnel leading to monsters lair? It could be cave-in, but also some people could place it to protect themselves from monster invasion or to trap monsters, so they will starve to death. Crystals the same, they could be natural or they could be shaped, it's just based on what you want to believe. Icicles could be also shaped a bit (I had in winter some of icicles on my window, so I could shape them, I had no idea that they are my property just because of that), they can also be created with ice magic. Cobwebs are probably created by spiders, but there is still some possibility of spider lover building artificial cobweb for spiders. Random trees in forest may be naturally grown or it was people that make them grow. Or maybe somebody took care of big tree and just cuts it's branches to make it look nice. It's possible too. The same like some vines, they could be placed to block some passages. Your current interpretation of this rule only means that everything is possible. From perspective of my analytical mind this is annoying.
Second problem is that if moving object into different place creates ownership, then every carryable by Garrett object becomes his property. So every rock, skull, bone, but also crate and part of broken statue, if moved by Garrett, it starts belonging to him. This means it can be destroyed as they suddenly counts as Garrett's tools and he can use them in any way he wants. So suddenly crates destruction doesn't count as damage property.
The proposition to fix this confusion it to ignore value of moving and shaping object os this is subjective to people. Another way is to change word "property" into "obstacle". So destruction of every object, no matter if it's natural or if it belongs to somebody, will count as a ghost bust.
klatremus on 5/11/2021 at 00:23
"It wasn't my intention that you completely ignoring and deflecting at mer everything I say". I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand what this is referring to. I am sorry if you feel ignored or deflected. I would hope that me responding to your posts would show that I am appreciating your input and not ignoring you. If I wanted to ignore you, I would simply not respond.
The two statements in the rules that have a bearing on the AI fights in question to me are: "Garrett must not cause suicides of AI or melees that intentionally cause AI to attack each other" and from the interpretation section: "Melees that occur beyond Garrett's control, as part of a game script, are allowed." The bolded statement in the second rule to me most directly illustrates the principle of not interfering with melees/fights/scripted deaths that are occurring between enemies. If Garrett is manipulating proceedings and thus intentionally affect the outcome of melees, I feel it is going against this principle. For something to be "beyond Garrett's control", it would need to be without his interference entirely. Like I said last time, for regular ghost, whatever you do before the fight starts as part of normal gameplay, without the intention of altering the fight's outcome is up to each player's conscience. I choose to avoid any interference even before that, mostly because I play Supreme ghost and can't douse lights or leave doors open anyway. That's my take on it.
I agree with most of your points on property. I'm not sure I understand your "property rights earned by moving natural object in different place or shaping it a bit" statement. When I walk into the room where the deity stones are used, I see a big red metal framework with a huge crystal monolith looking structure on top. I see statues with pictures along the wall and an elevator in the middle. To me, the whole room screams 'constructed'. It seems to me like everything in there has been designed by someone intelligent or magical, or both, for a very specific reason. That is the simple reason why I concluded the structure on top of the red metal framework was someone's property. Sure, it might be ancient and made from at one time natural objects, but when destroying it and seeing it was hiding the entrance to Bantar's lair, to me I even more strongly think it is something constructed and thus meeting the criteria of property.
And yes you are right, I wrote Bantar when I meant Zilfin.
Galaer on 5/11/2021 at 07:14
We had this discussion about what is property not long time ago and you we made distinction between natural objects (fine to destroy) and property (forbidden to destroy). Now you are changing this statement by adding your interpretation about moving natural object to different place (like blocking passage) and slightly modified objects (this could be your crystal monolith - you strongly believe it was shaped by someone intelligent, I don't see it). By this interpretation of yours it's impossible to judge what object is allowed to destroy, because this is purely subjective. That's why I proposed 2 options: remove your interpretation of this rule or make destruction of every object a ghost bust. So what option do you choose?
One more thing - I think you misunderstood what I meant that freeing spiders in Mission 2 is fine, because I left Thieves Guild immediately. I meant that because if I teleport quickly, I will be too far away from AI and they will freeze in place. This is how Dark Engine works. Of course I checked how far are patrollers from spiders. This means that there is no fight initiated by me and it's impossible that this fight can be started without reentering Thieves Guild. Spiders movements may be programmed, but fight between thieves and spiders isn't. And starting fight between AIs by opening cell is bust of rule #5. I actually used this mechanic or exploit in Mission 3 a lot. In Mission 1 the reason why archers survived is also because of that. They could get unfreezed only when I returned to the marketplace. I have edited my report to include this explanation as I may forgot about writing about it.
Galaer on 7/11/2021 at 20:45
RUINS OF ORIGINIA
MISSION 3 - FIRE AND ICE
ICE CAVE
I count this as a filler mission. On Expert there is kill all burricks objective. Burricks are immune to gas, so my idea to accumulate gas arrows from previous missions was worthless. Also they are immune to blackjack. Burricks are also more sensitive than normal. If you play on lower difficulties, then it's still impossible to escape starting room. You can approach icicle only by using invisibility potion, but you can't cross it without destroying it. And it's destruction 2nd alerts all 3 burricks. But I'm playing on Expert, which will be even more messy. So this fight with 3 burricks I count as a ghost bust #1.
Ice cave is a huge maze of corridors looking the same. It's easy to get lost. There is lots of quick running frost burricks. You can wait for them and kill them with powerful slash. In a few moments I always was strafe running behind them with sword to kill them. Kill them while in shadow, so other burricks will not notice their bodies. Also frost burricks venture everywhere in this cave system and have really long patrol routes, so finding them may be difficult after killing many burricks.
There is area with giant frost burricks. One of them is a bit smaller and it can be killed in one hit. Other 2 are large and there is no way to kill them in one hit. At least they can move far away from each other, so killing one will not alert 2nd giant burrick. But still killing them with many sword slashes is ghost bust #2-3.
There is area with narrow path above pit on the left and bridge on the right. Both paths has couple of burricks paired together. On the left is pair of frost burricks. To split them I crouched on narrow path and when they dodged me, I saved and reloaded, so one of them fell to the bottom of pit. 2nd burrick got stuck walking at wall. i used invisibility potion to go past him to the front and wait for him in shadow, then saved and reloaded to make him move towards me.
After bridge on the right is group of 3 frost burricks. This time I used the fact that they are frozen in place when they are very far away from me. Thanks to that I could go to end of bridge to trigger 1st burrick and return to shadow to wait for him. Then I went slightly more forward than previously to trigger only 2nd burrick to come and killed him. For last burrick I didn't need to go backwards.
PRISON
Here is the only shadow burrick in this mission and he's very sensitive. You can sneak to him only by climbing over rocks and squeezing past rock and icicle. Just don't touch side of rocks as it makes burrick to go into search mode. Then kill him.
LAVA CAVE
Lava Cave is another huge maze. I believe that all loot is located here plus it's located in tunnels not patrolled by fire burricks. Fire burricks are special enemies that turn into statue after killing them. This means that fire burricks don't scream after death. But killing them will still alert nearby fire burricks. Burricks statues don't count as body, so enemies don't alert when seeing them. Also fire burricks can be killed with single water arrow.
In 1st area there are 6 fire burricks. One of them is alone, so I kill him easily. But other 5 are in 1 group. Again I use large distance to my advantage and go into tunnel from which they appeared. I slowly venture forward, wait 30 seconds in one place, then move a bit forward, wait 30 second s again and repeat until I will see 1st burrick approach me. Then I back off to kill him and move slightly forward to trigger next burrick. That's the only way I found to split burricks and kill them without any alerts.
2nd area is much easier. There is one burrick in lava and 3 burricks patrolling different tunnels. I prioritize burrick in lava. He changes into statue, but lava very quickly destroy it, which is louder, but didn't alert any burrick. But still for other 3 fire burricks I avoid killing them in lava. Then you just need to go to gate to finish this mission. Also by getting 11000 loot I completed hidden loot objective ( because loot get transferred from previous missions, I only needed to collect 1 piece of loot to trigger it).
STATS:
Time: 1:35:10; Loot: 15337/15437 (1940/2040)
Pockets Picked: 0/0; Locks Picked: 5
Back Stabs: 22; Knock Outs: 0
Damage Dealt: 912; Damage Taken: 0; Healing Taken: 0
Innocents killed: 0; Others killed: 33
Iron Beasts Destroyed: 0; Disabled: 0
Secrets: 0/0
GHOST: IMPOSSIBLE
Galaer on 7/11/2021 at 20:47
RUINS OF ORIGINIA
MISSION 4 - ASHES TO ASHES
MUSEUM OF ANCIENTS
For some reason my loot gathered in previous mission has doubled in the shop. So instead of 15337 loot, I have 30674 loot for shopping. This allows me to buy everything in the shop. First I make shortcut and jump down to vine below starting point. In Museum you are forced by objective to visit all exhibits. This results in being attacked right when you enter Exhibits #20 and 18 (ghost bust #1-2). You can't escape from Exhibit #26 as there is beholder near exit and he see perfectly well in darkness and whenever there is no wall between both of you, he will turn towards you and attack (ghost bust #3).
You are forced to skip 4 loot roses and extra objective in Exhibit #25 as fishes in water see perfectly well in darkness. In Exhibit #19 there is bugbeast woman standing on exit portal, but you can just sneak behind her and easily escape. In Exhibit #1 there are mini Tricksters. Their 1st alerts may sound like 2nd alerts (like "I can see you"). But they do nothing with that and don't walk. Or maybe they can't walk. I don't know, it's hard to tell. In Exhibit #7 are 4 black nuggets and treebeast. Treebeast is sensitive, so you can't go too close to last nugget, but you can grab other 3 easily. As for leaving you must return to ledge where you started and quickly move forward into exit portal. In Exhibit #21 I skip nugget in area with 2 treebeasts as I can't squeeze through wooden planks.
In Exhibit #5 you are forced to use explosive charge to black gate (ghost bust #4). You can blast explosive charge with flare. Thanks to that guards may not hear explosion. This way you obtain Royal Jewels. Also about this place - I tried to get to jewels through gap below ceiling by stacking all my items and roping up to the ceiling, but I was unable to squeeze through gap. I couldn't use my bow either, so I don't know how would I return back down without killing myself. But maybe this route is possible. I don't know.
In Exhibit #10 you are forced to attack wall at the back of Temple. This will slide wall upward. It's hard to tell if it's damage property as wall doesn't break, but I use force for that. But at the same time some guards walking around Temple will 2nd alert (and there is many guards walking, so I suspect it's impossible avoid alerting them (ghost bust #5). In Temple there is arrow trap, which is impossible to not trigger and guards can hear through wall, so they will definitely 2nd alert. In tomb is Corpse of First Builder. Since I have no idea if traversing trap in opposite direction in such a short time, alerts any new AI, I count this trap as ghost bust #6-7. Also it's possible that some guard will use stairs to descend, so hide in corners. Also it's possible that at the top of stairs is guard stuck on ceiling trying to walk outside. To avoid him just slowly sneak around him.
ESCAPE
This is the highlight of ghost run in this mission. First you must climb to treebeast near exit tunnel. I used 3 moss arrows here to make my life easier. Next sneak very slowly to exit tunnel. You can't enter, because treebeast will spot you. On the left of escape tunnel is line between textures. You can slowly climb thanks to it, then strafe run right into tunnel and quickly slow down, so you will avoid being spotted. Go outside.
You can't go right, but you will not manage to go too far left. So you must again climb up by using line between textures. It's very slow climb. Then you must strafe run to the next line and climb up again. Repeat this couple of times. At some point there will be treebeast near entrance to volcano. To not get spotted by him you must use speed potion to run to next line. Go to entrance to volcano from left side and throw Book of Darkness into Alien Orb. Go outside, climb up and do last strafe run to line under vine. Climb to it and exit this mission.
STATS:
Time: 1:14:06; Loot: 7847/9207
Pockets Picked: 9/23; Locks Picked: 0
Back Stabs: 0; Knock Outs: 0
Damage Dealt: 0; Damage Taken: 0; Healing Taken: 0
Innocents killed: 0; Others killed: 0
Iron Beasts Destroyed: 0; Disabled: 0
Secrets: 0/0
GHOST: IMPOSSIBLE
Galaer on 7/11/2021 at 20:49
RUINED
PART 1
First of all I play without dml fixes as I noticed that one of secret passages with ton of loot doesn't open and loot objective is really tight. Also in readme I noticed statement that this campaign can be ghosted. So I thought ghost run will be easy, but actually is challenging. Also I'm gonna be skipping triggering Basement key objective and Vault Ignis objectives as it results with 2nd alerting 2 haunts.
START
Swordman in 1st area is very sensitive. Don't climb up while he's walking towards you or he will go into search mode. After mantling up quickly hide in shadow and climb on rock. Here is Rupert's body with purse and 5 coins under metal fence. Mantle on fence, then on wall and go to it's end for secret metal box with loot and breath potion you will need at the end of mission.
Rope up to Guard Room. Wait for him to move and grab 2 statuettes, candlestick and ring near book. Hide on balcony again and wait. Waiting is long, it can take couple of minutes before he will go again and this time go through portcullis. Take Trapdoor Over Gap key from purple box. Note that every use of purple box, teleport key from your inventory back into purple box. Ride elevator down. Ride elevator up and quickly go into dark room with secret chest. Don't frob lock near elevator switches as it triggers Basement key objective.
Ride elevator up to door. In left corridor is guard with purse. Return to previous room. Open chest in right room and wait for patroller. Go to room he came from. Inside 1st left chest is loot and also grab everything from table and bottle under the table. Wait under wall for patroller to come back and go to next wall to wait for him. In next room take everything from table and open 2nd and 3rd chest for loot. Ride elevator down. Picklock metal door only when patroller are away. Hide in doorway and when path is clear go left.
Here is trapdoor. You can use key on lock to disable alarm on lever, but don't jump down - this is one way path leading to Monastery. Steal purse from guard. Mantle over rock and shoot rope arrow to wooden beam above window. Grab Armory key from window and drop down. This rope arrow I'm not gonna retrieve. Sneak to Armory.
ARMORY
Use lever under crates without picking up crate, because putting it down will 2nd alert sleeping guard on next floor. Use lever above "X" to open path to outside for later. Go upstairs and wait for patroller to go to table. Take his purse and 2 vases. In next room steal Private key from sleeping guard and open door. Left chest has Watch Big Gate key. Go through banner. Here are 9 pieces of loot including necklace on statue and ring behind bookshelf. Frob floor banner and use lever on the other side of window. Descend to spider room and search body for loot.
Go to attic and open left door. Take candlestick, 3 plates and 3 coins on floor near and in fireplace. Also read note for Yorick's Skull objective. Take Yorick's Skull from chest behind fireplace. ??? key spawned at the top of ladder, but it's useless. It opens other door that leads to scroll triggering Vault Ignis objective and passage to roof that is intended path to garden. But dropping on metal fence will 2nd alert 2 guard in garden. So just skip this part and go outside through basement door.
At the top of rock is gem. Shoot rope arrow into wooden beam to climb up to rock under metal fence. Thanks to that enemies will not alert. Go left and drop into garden. Both guards have purse. For right guard just go forward from middle of path. For left guard run from shadow to shadow while running along left side. Rope back up and return to rope. I'm not gonna retrieve it again. Go on rock where gem was located and use cave go to starting area. Go through bush to secret cemetery.
CEMETERY
This place is hard to ghost, but it's necessary. You can't use ladder as it immediately breaks. Rope up to wooden beam and run to the end of rock, drop on lower rock and drop on ground. Use bone and jump on gravestone. Run above frogbeast and go to secret passage. Here are 15 gems, but only 3 are hard to get, because red pool hurts. It mostly hurt on left side of it and also above this part. 1st hard gem is in pool. Quickly go to it, grab it and escape before you will get hurt. Go around right wall to fountain and shoot rope arrow into west part of wooden beam. Go to it and take 2 gems. Don't turn around as your position will be above pool and you will get hurt. Return to Cemetery, moss stone that risen and mantle on it. Jump to frog near ladder, then jump over this frog and rope up to exit. Now you just need to sneak to Guard Room in trapdoor area, open right gate, quickly run to left side of it and go through it into shadow.
CAPTAIN MURDOCK'S HOUSE
Go to the middle of path and run to shadow behind entrance to guard Room. Going into this area will trigger freeing 2 burricks. If this will not happen, then reload. Open door only if patroller and burrick are away. Take bottle from table and other near bookshelf. Also chest has more loot. Go along left wall towards hedge. From here you need to use 2 rope arrows to climb over hedge and go to house. Quickly run to right corner and go upstairs. In 3rd barrel are 3 coins, there are 2 bottles near sleeping guard, chest and scroll on wooden beam. Return to west hedge, climb on it and go behind house. Douse mushroom and take all loot. There is also a lot of loot behind banner. Due to short frob range it may be hard to highlight it, but just crouch under banner and uncrouch and try get it. Return to entrance gate to this area.
VAULT IGNIS
Go along east wall and enter passage. 2 patrollers have purses. Guard near entrance to Monastery has another purse, but he's placed in too well lighten area. So this purse worth 50 must be skipped. Go right along hedge and use Yorick's Skull to enter Vault Ignis. In SE corridor are 6 coins. So now I will explain why I'm skipping Vault Ignis objective and Basement key objective. Normally you need to put Yorick's Skull on pedestal with lava around. This creates gas that will hurt you and summons 2 haunts that will 2nd alert. Also west obelisk will move and destroy 2 unfrobbable crates, which will alert haunts even more. Behind obelisk is Lift key, which completes Basement key objective.
Crates can be pushed out of the way. Also it's possible to not get hurt when placing Yorick's Skull. If you stand close to the place where you need to put skull, look a bit up. Now go backwards, drop skull and jump backwards. If done correctly you will not get hurt. But because haunts alert I'm gonna skip it. To exit just go the way you entered. Obelisk has moved to block entrance, but it's possible to reach lever under it by crouch running along obelisk. When you going downward during your run is when you reach this lever. Return all the way to trapdoor.
TRAPDOOR
Place starts easy, but you have long underwater section with 3 pieces of loot. If you go for loot you will be forced to drink 2 breath potions, if you ignore you only need 1 breath potion. Then enter pipe and wait for red spider to return and walk on air above you. 2nd red spider is much harder to ghost. You can't use moss arrow as spider 2nd alert to it or just patrol normally, but he sounds like 2nd alerted. Instead go to middle of his patrol and wait on right side of pipe. Spider will only 1st alert to you. Jump over poison water. You need to enter left pipe. You can use rope arrow, but you can't retrieve. You can also strafe jump+mantle there from SW part of room. Descend to water and grab nugget near grate. Swim to ladder to finish this mission.
STATS:
Time: 1:14:42; Loot: 5373/5548
Pockets Picked: 8/15; Locks Picked: 14
Back Stabs: 0; Knock Outs: 0
Damage Dealt: 0; Damage Taken: 0; Healing Taken: 0
Innocents killed: 0; Others killed: 0
Iron Beasts Destroyed: 0; Disabled: 0
Secrets: 4/4
GHOST: CHEMICAL SUCCESS
PERFECT GHOST: IMPOSSIBLE. Skipped purse worth 50 on guard in front of Monastery as this place is too well lighten.
