Galaer on 26/12/2021 at 17:01
OFF TO MILHORN MANOR - OVERHAUL EDITION
CHANGES
This mission is now possible to ghost, so I decided to play it. Many tricky situations are gone, but there is still some challenge. This time there is no shenanigans with green spider at the beginning of mission and you can drop into well without any problem as spiders will not hear you. There is easy path to rooftops via ladder. Also tricky purse on archer doesn't exist anymore. On top of Alchemist Shop is wooden beam and thanks to that you don't need to very carefully crouch walk through this roof. Also Alchemist Shop can't be entered, so there is no need to return to this roof later in the mission and destroy grate in chimney, which was one of ghost busts.
In Sewers red spider doesn't have random patrol route anymore. In 2nd station I noticed that 1st lever can be reached without using rope arrow. You can lean towards it from very edge of platform and then strafe jump to ladder.
Ground Floor still has a lot of enemies. In kitchen's storage there is no big crate and chest behind it. There are only 3 bags of spices behind normal crates. Basement also has lots of enemies, though I think there is less of them. Major difference in Guards Lodging is you can crouch and go through banner to obtain Sewer door. Also there is no spiders in basement. SW sewer room leads outside, so you can obtain pick from gardener's hut that way. This is also my exit from mansion. North sewer room leads to alchemy room where is located sulfur. In inner garden is grave, but unlike in original version, you don't need to move slowly. I wonder if guard's range of seeing has been lowered. Upper Floor has only 1 patroller an 1 stationary guard near poll, so it's twice easy to ghost it. And the same like before, in chapel you can grab 2 pieces of loot through banner.
In Cave stationary burrick is turning, so there is no need to use invisibility potion. Next room is patrolled by 1 burrick, so it's not a problem. Originally exit tunnel was watched and I was forced to use 4 rope arrows to ghost this cave. There is the same amount of fire elementals in ruins, but stationary elemental has been moved closer to entrance to this area and he's looking towards entrance, which has good shadow. So this area is much easier to ghost too. Big boulder doesn't break into small boulders anymore, it just vanish after using pick. Spider tunnel is empty and wider than before. Light mushrooms can't be frobbed to douse, but it's easy to get to burrick cave without being seen by them. Here are just 2 patrolling burricks and a lot of shadow on left side, so it's again easy. There is low plank leading to vault and it's frobbable. You can move it to side and then frob again to make it return to original spot, so last 2 ghost busts also don't exist.
I collected 3 special loot, no idea how many there is in mission, but you need to get at least 1 of them for loot requirement. Also I completed bonus objective by finding mysterious note, which also trigger secret.
FINAL NOTE
When overhaul edition came out and it was stated that ghost is now possible, I was worried that mission will become too easy. And I was partially correct. Cheap ghost busts has been removed and I appreciate that and there is still a lot of patrollers i basement and ground floor. But a lot of tricky areas has been made much easier - mostly in cave where number of monsters has been lowered or they look in different direction. Also wooden beam on Alchemist Shop was unnecessary. Without it it was interesting challenge. I really wish that FM creators wouldn't care about ghosting community too much, because despite ghost busts, I had more fun ghosting original version of this mission, because it was more challenging.
STATS:
Time: 1:20:15; Loot: 6398/6718; Special Loot: 3
Pockets Picked: 6/6; Locks Picked: 16
Back Stabs: 0; Knock Outs: 0
Damage Dealt: 0; Damage Taken: 0; Healing Taken: 0
Innocents killed: 0; Others killed: 0
Iron Beasts Destroyed: 0; Disabled: 0
Secrets: 1/1
GHOST: SUCCESS
PERFECT GHOST: POSSIBLE
klatremus on 26/12/2021 at 23:36
Thank you for your new reports, Galaer. I am very happy with the last statement you made in the final report. I completely agree with you. Although it is nice that mission authors care about the ghosting community, when they make missions ghostable, it quite often makes the mission too easy and less fun. The missions I would classify as fun to ghost are those that were made long before ghosting was a common thing, like Ruins of Originia, Calendra's Legacy, etc. It forces the ghoster to think differently and experiment in new ways. Newer campaigns like Death's Cold Embrace, although fun to play, isn't that much more fun to ghost. It seems mission authors think they are helping us by making the mission ghostable, while they are really lowering the quality of the mission, in my opinion. It is difficult to explain to someone who doesn't ghost.
skacky on 26/12/2021 at 23:44
I understand what you're both saying and agree to a degree. I usually make sure my missions are ghostable so those who like to play pacifist and "casual" ghost can have fun doing that, but I don't really care beyond that, e.g. I will not go out of my way to make sure you can Supreme them. Case in point with the second Chalice of Souls mission and The Sound of a Burrick in a Room, both can be Supreme'd I believe but I just made sure they could be ghosted (and in the case of the latter mission, I didn't take property damage into account in the slightest).
marbleman on 27/12/2021 at 00:29
I feel like there's an important distinction to be made between a mission that's ghostable and ghost-friendly. I myself don't find missions from the latter category all that fun due to a lack of challenge, but I also don't think missions that disregard ghosting entirely are super fun either. My favorite example is Thieves Guild. It's ghostable. You can complete it without being detected once. It's by no means ghost-friendly though, and that's what makes it so damn fun. There are so many little, unique challenges in it, like stealing the loot from right under the gamblers' noses or getting Thom's key. On the other hand, putting a guard in your way with no other way to get past him (and I mean literally no other alternate path to take) other than get spotted or knock him out is not a fun challenge for ghosting, and not even fun design in general.
I also have lower tolerance for bullshit enemy placement than I do for other kinds of busts. I will gladly accept the need to slash a banner if there is no other way to progress, but I won't try and ghost a mission that actively pushes you towards confrontation. In fact, I don't think I'd enjoy playing such a mission casually either.
klatremus on 27/12/2021 at 02:37
I guess I shouldn't have said just mission that are "ghostable" per se, but those that are made with the ghost (or even Supreme) mode in mind, or overly so. Just the fact that a mission can be ghosted of course doesnt make it bad, but if the author is deliberately thinking about the rules, often very few challenges present themselves. Skacky's missions have almost a perfect balance, I'd say, but even they tend to lean towards the less challenging side (Beyond the Secluded Passage being a very good exception). But the outright quality of design and gameplay also counteract any lack in ghost challenges for his missions. Nothing wrong about giving the player options, but a combination of non-linearity and challenge is often what helps make a mission stand the test of time.
Please don't take what I said above as an absolute, but rather an average impression I've got for those missions where I know the author has considered the ghost modes.
Galaer on 27/12/2021 at 20:23
Quote Posted by marbleman
On the other hand, putting a guard in your way with no other way to get past him (and I mean literally no other alternate path to take) other than get spotted or knock him out is not a fun challenge for ghosting, and not even fun design in general.
I understand your point, but this kind of enemy placement isn't always impossible to ghost. For example in Lost City you have small spiders blocking passage. So I guess ghosting it is impossible, right? Wrong, someone found out that it's possible to nudge spiders with a crate. I'm guessing that finding out about that brought him a lot of satisfaction. Another example is from Strife Campaign. In one of missions there is central island and bridge leading to it is well lighten. On the side are 2 bots and the intended way is to run on bridge and avoid cannonballs. But for ghost mode you can jump to ledge with bot, nudge him a bit and do very tough jump to wooden beam and then to central island. This area wasn't supposed to be ghosted, but miraculously it was.
Ghosting is about beating the odds. There are situations where in order to ghost mission you must play it in unintended by author way and satisfaction from ghosting these impossible situation is huge.
You mentioned lack of alternate path, but it's not always true. Sometimes it's just you who don't notice alternate path. Sometimes using new mantle to find unintended high route is enough to ghost mission. Sometimes you must be more creative. Example: In Ruins of Originia Mission 2 there is alternate path to Bathar's Lab, but it gets blocked by avalanche of giant boulders. This path was deemed to be impossible. But guess what, it's actually possible to block avalanche and use this path and avoid confrontation with Bantar.
Other example is Patriot Mission 7. In there you must get in and out of west wing. Intended way in is by destroying barrels in wine cellar, but that's damage property. You can also use slow fall potion to get there and author predicted that. He put another fire arrow in west wing, so it's possible to destroy barrels from the other side. Since there is a way to climb up to window, to prevent players to use this path, after certain even in west wing this window gets barred. But figuring out how to block it from happening required some thinking and eventually it was possible. I was really happy.
Just because certain challenge looks impossible, it doesn't always mean that it's really impossible. For a very long time ghosters thought that ghosting Running Interference without KO-ing anyone is impossible. It just required me to try this challenge to find out that it's much easier than a lot of crazy techniques discovered in the past. Other example of trying something that looks impossible would be ghosting control room in Patriot Mission 10. There is only one way in - from vent. Below is combat bot looking in your direction and room is well lighten and patrolled by engineer. Since this run was going so well I had thought that I should do ghost run immediately instead of doing test run first. So I didn't brought with me mines to deal with bot. Anyway I would drop or jump out of vent I would be caught and killed by bot and I didn't want to restart this mission. So I did hundreds of jumps and failed miserably. Then I tried to moss vent and drink speed potion to do strafe jump. It took me another 100 of tries to finally succeed. I was really satisfied and at the same time relieved that it worked.
The conclusion of this long post of mine is that successfully ghosting these bullshit unfair situations gives me the most of fun. This way I discovered a lot of techniques I had no idea about. Like I learned that in certain situation you can drop into water without making splash by just cancelling mantle right above water. Unfortunately FM creators most of the time don't understand what makes their missions interesting to ghost and makes missions too easy to ghost. This ends with me writing super short reports that only say that mission is "pretty easy to ghost". And I have nothing else to say. I hate writing these kind of reports. Like for example report to your mission - Cracks in the Glass. I only write that it's pretty easy to ghost it. I had really nothing to add as I didn't notice any challenge and I felt sorry that i only write these couple of words on the mission you put so much effort. At least in missions with cheap ghost busts, I can mention them in my reports.
marbleman on 27/12/2021 at 20:38
Different strokes for different folks. Although you enjoy these situations, not everyone else does. The spiders at the beginning of the Lost City, I will still say, are an example of bullshit enemy placement even if they are technically possible to ghost. I don't get any fun or a sense of accomplishment from spending 30 minutes pushing them with a box, so I usually just use a couple gas arrows in my "casual" ghost runs. Anything that neccessitates engine exploits or tedious workarounds just isn't fun to me.
This is not to say I don't enjoy figuring out situations that are difficult to ghost at all. In the original version of Catacombs of Knoss, I was pretty proud of limiting the busts in the water shrine to just two second alerts instead of actually being chased by those flying swords. That said, I think the remaster is a better mission because it provides an alternative.
Does this make me a "lesser" ghoster? Maybe. But then again, I don't really care. And I am well aware that Cracks in the Glass is too easy. I'll be the first to admit that t's one of these, as I would say, ghost-friendly missions. If I made it today, it'd be a bit more challenging.
Galaer on 31/12/2021 at 18:02
DEFAMATION OF CHARACTER
Mostly easy mission. The only problem may be in basement as it's patrolled by 2 bots and there are watcher and also blue gem lights from Lost City. When bots are going through corridors and activate blue gems on ceiling, don't try to sneak past watchers. Wait until blue gems will go dark. On 2nd floor there are watchers, spider bots and marble floor, but there is also a lot of shadow, so it's not that hard to ghost it.
STATS:
Time: 0:40:00; Loot: 3410/3450
Pockets Picked: 3/8; Locks Picked: 14
Back Stabs: 0; Knock Outs: 0
Damage Dealt: 0; Damage Taken: 0; Healing Taken: 0
Innocents killed: 0; Others killed: 0
Iron Beasts Destroyed: 0; Disabled: 0
Secrets: 2/3
GHOST: SUCCESS
PERFECT GHOST: POSSIBLE
Galaer on 31/12/2021 at 18:04
DECEPTIVE PERCEPTION 2: PHANTASMAGORIA
I had a lot of problems with making this mission to work correctly. Luckily fortuni send me updated by Glypher version of this mission, so I managed to do a run.
After conversation in bar you fall on crate and destroy it. Since you have no control of Garrett just yet, I don't count that as ghost bust. Unfortunately opening 1st portcullis breaks switch controlling it - there are sparks and switch becomes unfrobbable (ghost bust #1). Next is scarecrow. When you approach other side of portcullis scarecrow will go after you. He can track you for couple of seconds, then turns around and start searching. During search quickly go to locked door and frob it. After couple of seconds scarecrow will track you again and start searching after couple of seconds. Since you frobbed door, soon after he will disappear.
After conversation with woman in storage room you can easily sneak past 2 turning haunts. But then angry ghost woman materialize in front of last door. It's impossible to sneak past her (ghost bust #2). I can run through her, but her skull shots will alert haunts and spiders in next room. So I'm running to angled wall to spawn her and then I run away to earlier storage (without haunts). Ghost will go after me. When she will start walking back to door, strafe run to her along right wall and go through her when she's turning around. In next room just quietly drop down to avoid alerting spiders.
After finding corpse of guard you get objective to kill doppelganger, which you do. Next rooms has a lot of things breaking on it's own. Just run past them. You are forced to use smasher to destroy sealed box (ghost bust #3) and get key to sewers. Then use slow fall potion to drop down. Go to bridge. It will get broken 3 times. I jump into air while it's happening, so it will not count as damage property done by me. Get key and go to temple.
In shadow world you must ghost walking women and spiders, but it's easy. It will just take some time as women move slowly. After activating portal you must break mirror (excused by objective) and return to normal world. Here are fights between Keepers and women. Giant woman from portal room will get summoned and she's impossible to be killed, so Keepers will ultimately die. When giant woman will appear on stairs to fight Keepers you must mantle on metal railing, quietly drop on lamp below and on ground. It's possible to do it without being noticed by enemies. Go to portal.
Avoid eggs and in room with monster on the right, go along left wall to ladder. Then drop on edge of metal bridge. You must attack wall with sword to make bricks frobbable. I believe that it count as damage property (ghost bust #4). After getting caught by evil doctor you must escape from freezer. You do that by throwing crates into icicles. Don't destroy crates by mistake. Last challenge is in ancient temple. When you go through room with 4 statues, they will break and 4 giant women will spot you. Unless you strafe run to shadow under gate. Then giant women will just go into search mode, which I believe is scripted.
STATS:
Time: 1:00:25; Loot: 200/460
Locks Picked: 5
Damage Dealt: 30; Damage Taken: 0; Healing Taken: 0
Kills: 1; Back Stabs: 1
Number of times you jumped: 6
Cried like a little girl: 3
Almost shit your pants: 1
GHOST: IMPOSSIBLE
Galaer on 31/12/2021 at 18:04
DIRTY BUSINESS
Mission based on Cragscleft Prison, but you can only explore mines. Mission is mostly easy to ghost. The only problems are in watcher corridors in temple as some corridor have even 3 watchers close to each other and corridors are well lighten. Rooms near corridors have blue gem lighting like from Lost city. Luckily security rooms are fairly close and they are protected by just one watcher, so it's not that hard to disable them.
STATS:
Time: 0:26:05; Loot: 1952/1952
Pockets Picked: 1/1; Locks Picked: 8
Back Stabs: 0; Knock Outs: 0
Damage Dealt: 0; Damage Taken: 0; Healing Taken: 0
Innocents killed: 0; Others killed: 0
Iron Beasts Destroyed: 0; Disabled: 0
Secrets: 0/0
GHOST: SUCCESS
PERFECT GHOST: SUCCESS
