Galaer on 23/5/2022 at 13:10
Quote Posted by klatremus
I just read his report and although I don't have all the details since I haven't played the mission, it does sound like there are busts there, as you are instigating fights between enemies, and that is directly disallowed following rule #5 "Garrett must not cause suicides of AI or melees that intentionally cause AI to attack each other, with the exception of rule 12." Rule #12 doesn't apply because these fights aren't caused by scripts, as in you just walking into a room and starting a sequence, but this is where I don't know enough. Are you luring the elementals into a room with the craymen? The report says the craymen get alerted, but that is not from Garrett but from the fire elementals and undeads fighting, but those are fights you have to initiate. Am I correct here? I think you two are better at judging this since I haven't played it, but at least now I've tried to explain the principles.
In my defense I would say that upon reading rule #5 it never occurred to me that this rule is talking about not allowing infighting. I understood that you aren't allowed to create suicide of AI (for example by nudging it into water to drown) and then you can't use killed body to alert other AIs. For a very long time I didn't know about the real meaning of this rule. This rule is just very badly written. I don't understand why original ghosters decided to put every way about other ways of killing AI in one short sentence, which can be really easily misunderstood. I never even heard about word "melees", googling it now it says "confused crowd of people", but it doesn't explain very well what this rule is about. So I request rewriting of this rule.
RippedPhreak on 23/5/2022 at 15:17
Quote Posted by Galaer
REVERSE ROBBERY DIRECTOR'S CUTQuote:
And the carpet at the middle is also a trap. If you walk on it you will make marble floor noise. So it's like there is no carpet.
I just checked and there is carpet sound on it. Maybe you just hit the edge, so you were on the marble but thought it was the carpet?
Quote:
1st alert from haunts
This is not a bust because the haunts are just phantoms like the pagan villagers from Trail of Blood.
klatremus on 23/5/2022 at 16:18
@lordhern: If you include stats and quick list of main points then I can add it to the first post list.
@Galaer: The rule isnt badly written it's just you need to know the meaning of the word 'melee'. I guess we can include 'enemies fighting amongst themselves' as an extra description. It's not a commonly used word for non English speakers. I learned it early because I played Monkey Island growing up and they use the word a lot there.
@RippedPhreak: The phantoms in Trail of Blood never give first alerts so they cant be the same.
Galaer on 23/5/2022 at 16:37
@klatremus: As old timer who understand original intent of this rule you may not realize that this rule may be confusing for new ghosters. So I propose this change:
"You aren't allowed to alert or kill enemies in any other way that allows you to do it without being seen or heard. With exception of rule #12:
A) Example of alerting AI without being seen or heard would be dropping killed or unconscious body in front of them to lure them out.
B) Example of killing enemies without being heard or seen would be nudging AI into water for them to drown.
C) You also aren't allowed to initialize any infighting. For example by opening door for opposite enemies to see each other or by creating AI to fight with other AI. Exception to this rule may be fight started by listening to scripted conversation."
@RippedPhreak: That's weird. I walked on edge of carpet, but also through middle between pedestals and I was still making marble noise.
RippedPhreak on 23/5/2022 at 17:40
Quote:
The phantoms in Trail of Blood never give first alerts so they cant be the same.
I still don't think it applies because it's not an "alert" but a scripted sound that fires even if the player is completely invisible, inaudible etc.
Galaer on 23/5/2022 at 18:05
Quote Posted by RippedPhreak
I still don't think it applies because it's not an "alert" but a scripted sound that fires even if the player is completely invisible, inaudible etc.
When I played this mission I thought that haunts alert to the sound of opening sarcophagus, which was caused by me. This would be a supreme bust. But it's easy to haunts only appear when lid of sarcophagus is at the middle state of sliding the first time. So it's easy to avoid spawning them by quickly opening and closing sarcophagus.
RippedPhreak on 23/5/2022 at 18:16
I guess the scripted sound only fires when the sarcophagus cover reaches the fully opened position. Defeated again! :p
klatremus on 23/5/2022 at 23:27
@Galaer: Can you move your suggestion comment over to the ghost discussion thread? Starting to get a bit too much fluff over rules in here. I'll post my answer over there.
klatremus on 24/5/2022 at 23:20
Game:
Thief 2FM:
A Better TomorrowGhost -
SuccessPerfect Thief -
SuccessTime - 31:52
Loot - 2468/2468
Pockets Picked - None
Secrets - None
Locks Picked - 13
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 0
Damage dealt - 0, Damage taken - 0
Healing taken - 0, Other Kills - 0, Bodies Discovered - 0
Consumables - None
YouTube let's play (
https://youtu.be/nYft85fJKPg) here!
Played this again but didn't go for Supreme. I just wanted to replicate WheretIB2's strat for avoiding the splash in the basement. You have to use flares and have them break the fall above the waterline. This was the only Ghost bust in my previous run, so now it was ghostable.
Galaer on 25/5/2022 at 16:42
Congratulations on successful ghost run of this mission, klatremus. I was wondering if flares could allow player to fall down into water quietly. It's great to see video proof that it's possible.
