klatremus on 25/2/2024 at 00:51
Game:
Thief 2FM:
Patriot, Mission 7: HereticGhost -
SuccessPerfect Thief -
SuccessSupreme Ghost -
SuccessPerfect Supreme -
FailedTime - 2:38:53
Loot - 3000/3000 (Supreme: 2980)
Pockets Picked - 5/5
Secrets - 12/13
Locks Picked - 3
Backstabs - 0, Knockouts - 1
Damage dealt - 1, Damage taken - 0
Innocents Killed: 0, and others Killed: 0
Consumables - None
See the entire report with screenshots (
https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot7.htm) here!
Loot list (
https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot7_L.htm) here.
YouTube let's play (
https://youtu.be/4XrDiwvV7qU) here!
Comments:In my opinion, this is the best mission in the campaign so far. An enormous step up from Pathfinder. A daytime breakout mission in a mechanist monastery, with lots of side quests and surprises along the way. Zontik is sailing up as one of my all-time favorite authors. Every twist and turn is based on a new idea, executed to perfection. Everyone, do not let a foreign language make you turn down this masterpiece of a creation.
My initial tasks sounded simple; find the major and bring him out of the monastery, picking up at least 2,000 worth of valuables along the way. It would end up being slightly more complicated than that, but all in due time.
I always try to reduce the amount of items I pick up and the number of doors I unlock, especially if I can't relock them. There were a few such doors in this mission that could be unbolted from one side only, but thereafter couldn't be locked up. These I wanted to avoid. In addition, a lady Morra responded to some of my actions by performing scripted changes to the environment, often involving doors or lights. Likewise I wanted to reduce those. This especially involved an optional objective of marking the basement entry door with a piece of chalk. This would also change the exit objective and render the mission impossible to Supreme.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot7_files/image001.jpgGuest HallGetting into the guest hall thus presented a problem. The intended way was via a chimney arriving in the fireplace, but this triggered Morra to knock down the ladder. The only way to get there without using this ladder was by mantling the fence in the courtyard with a well-timed jump from the big staircase (image above). The guest hall itself was very tough. I couldn't walk far into the room without getting lit up, so I stuck close to the walls. Most enemies were located on the east side, while the majority of the loot was to the west. Two conversing noblemen to the east didn't first alert, so I could grab the purse from one of them unseen. Then circled the room counterclockwise. Another nobleman by a window only turned around when a patrolling mechanist came by. The biggest problem was a stationary monk close to the dining tables (image below). He never turned and was facing southeast. I used the southwest corner of the hall to time my runs over to the tables in order to get the gold plates. There were 10 in total, but I had to skip the 2 on the eastern end for Supreme. One could be taken with just a first alert, but the other required dousing the torches on the nearby pillar. Not a problem for Ghost. I was quite close to getting one of them without a comment, so I imagine perhaps it could be done, but I wasn't able to find the right method. Grabbed the baths key also from the blue monk before leaving through the gate.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot7_files/image002.jpgLooted the guard house without issues. The archive key upstairs was necessary, but taking it made Morra lock the door down the stairs. I could get back out again without picking it, as at least two patrollers used it along their route. I waited for one of them to come by. I would have wanted to use the eastern walkway to reach the refectory, but that wasn't possible for Supreme. The guard outside heard me open the door, however that could be avoided by again waiting for one of the patrollers. But I was stuck there, as I couldn't get further without at least a first alert. I could reach the refectory this way for regular ghost, but for Supreme I'd have to find a different way.
Continued south and cleaned Abbot's quarters without issues. There was a guard outside, but this area of the stairs was shaded, despite being in the middle of the day. One of the guards involved in a conversation in the pillar crypt ended up patrolling inside these quarters, but since I hadn't triggered it yet, the compound was empty. Only took the loot, none of the keys here was needed. The cathedral key could be useful, but there was a different way in. Grabbed one rope arrow from the master bedroom; I would need one more later.
Crypt LevelCrossed the walkway north to bypass the pillar crypts, and instead headed west. Brought along a crate from the southwest storage room; I needed to come back for at least one more. Visited the west chapel from the northern staircase. A patroller came down here, so it was smart to wait for him to pass first. The candelabra on the altar was the tough piece. I had to mantle up the ledge in the northwest corner and observe the pivoting monk (image below). As he turned east, I mantled and dropped slowly into the northwest corner. With a bit of luck, he would stay that way until I had taken the loot and gotten back to the ledge with the statue. It took a few tries, but he luckily didn't pivot too often. The statue on the wall was easier.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot7_files/image003.jpgMoved via the northwest hallway into the cloister. Dropped the crate here and headed back for another. Skipped the baths for now, as it would take away my square lockpick. Not sure if I would need it, but I waited just to be safe. This time I went through the underground church and got the loot there. The two crates were needed in one of the open windows in the cloister (image below). I use the easternmost one, to get them as far away from the stationary monk here as possible. The reason for the crates were to block the metal bars from closing the window once I visited the west wing the first time around. The intended way to leave the northwest courtyard afterwards was through the basement, but this required property damage to the barrels down there, which busts both regular Ghost and as well as Supreme. I thus needed a way out of the courtyard using two rope arrows and these crates. Galaer found a similar method, though he used three crates; I assure you only two is needed. I tested by quickly fetching a slow-fall potion and jumping through the window, triggering the event and roping back up. Otherwise, you might need to redo the whole scenario much later. Using the potion wasn't a viable option besides for testing purposes; there would be a different way down besides using the basement from the cathedral.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot7_files/image004.jpgIn the north crypt I ended up taking the chimney sweep key, while still managing to block the door behind me as Morra closed it. In order to get the extra bottle of wine outside the chimney tower, I needed that key. I left the door open but locked, so that I could close it back up once returning the key later. Looted the scriptorium and the basement next without issues.
West WingNow I had finally reached the refectory, since that wasn't possible earlier from the guard house. The monk in there had to be stationed northwest long enough for me to sneak along the south wall away from the door. At a certain point he seemed to lose sight of me and I could go faster. Cleaned the kitchen and the open gallery easily enough. The monk raking leaves didn't give any first alerts.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot7_files/image005.jpgIn my test run, my method of reaching the west wing was by jumping from the cathedral's north closet window. However, Galaer found a better way that I cannot take any credit for. From the courtyard south of the open gallery, mantle the torch, then up on the roof above (image above). Circling this roof north took me directly above the western basement entrance (image below). With an accurate drop, I could land in a mantle behind the guard, without as much as a peep. The jump I had made from the north closet was much more difficult. Now I could get the final piece of loot from the basement and enter the west wing via one of the open windows.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot7_files/image006.jpgThe only thing to do here was grab one piece of loot and read the notice outside the prison gate. This updated the objectives to learn the correct bell signal and toll it in order for the doorman to leave. Since I was done, I now had to make my way up to the window I had previously blocked with the crates. Two well-placed rope arrows did the trick (image below). Luckily, they overlapped, so grabbing the lowest made me grab hold of the upmost one. I could also mantle into the window while grabbing the rope in the process. Getting past the boxes wasn't 100% predictable, but normally grabbing the topmost box and then pushing just past the gate did the trick. I couldn't push fully onto the floor, as that would spawn a first alert from the monk to the west.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot7_files/image007.jpgI could now safely return the crates to the storage room, as they were no longer needed. I also visited the baths to pick up the fuse along the way. Morra would lock the door, but I again blocked it. If not, I would have to trigger the optional objective to chalk off the entry door in the cellar basin. This would trigger several guards there later, meaning I would have to use the hidden exit in the pillar crypts to leave. This couldn't be done without busting Supreme, thus it was imperative to not read her letter. This was a safe move despite losing my square lockpick. I had already visited all the doors that possibly needed to be lockpicked and as it turned out, none did.
Next I returned the chimney sweep key and then took the long way back through the basement, the refectory and into the open gallery. Cleaned the archive room, including the well hidden secret study. A book in here checked off one of the new objectives. Morra for some reason turned on the lights while I was here. Then I mantled onto the roof south of the garden like before. This time, however, I leaped southwest onto the cathedral balcony (image below).
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot7_files/image008.jpgCathedralThe only problem in the cathedral were the two narrow walkways on the upper level overlooking the chapel. Each of them had a patrolling monk. In the southern one I had to hide on one of the windowsills; the outer ledge was difficult to reach, but offered concealment (image below). The northern section was tougher. The door was locked and could only be opened by blocking the door when the monk emerged. I could reach it from the shade around the corner, but the monk gave a first alert when I frobbed it. It was one of those doors in desperate need of some oil for the hinges. Normally, enemies only alert to it opening or slamming shut, but not this one. It was slow at closing, but even frobbing it just before it shut still spawned an alert. Then I tried scooting in behind the monk and blocking it with my body, but then he heard my footsteps. Finally I found that if I took a fast step around the corner and quickly leaned forward, my body would block the door just before it shut without needing to make noise by stepping. This was one of those fun challenges that I don't think I've ever had to do and that took a few minutes to figure out, but was very rewarding once successful.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot7_files/image009.jpgThe roof and bell tower were cleaned uneventfully. After tolling the bells, the quickest way down to the west wing I found was via the roofs to the west. I could exit via the west window just north of the entrance to the bell tower room, by mantling the torch and furthermore the railing. The biggest obstacle came in reaching the roof south of the courtyard by the open gallery. I had to drop into a direct mantle from the roof to the east (image below). From there it was pretty much a straight shot.
Inline Image:
https://www.klatremus.org/Patriot7_files/image010.jpgBack in the west wing, the doorman had now made it to the aquilon. I could take his key ring and enter the prison. I could drop it anywhere along his route. If you wait 8 minutes past tolling the bell, the doorman returns to the prison area and you can see his route. I had to lock block several of the doors in order to return the key properly. Knocking out the major was not a bust, as it followed the objective of getting him outside, plus it was heavily implied by the events in the cell. I used the secret exit from the cell to bring him to the ossuary.
From here, the rest was easy. Returned the baths key and the archive key before looting the pillar crypts, just to avoid dealing with the extra patrollers. Brought the major to the sewers and ended the mission. What a fantastic ride!
Notes:- Skipped two golden plates worth 20 in the guest hall for Supreme. The stationary monk wasn't possible to fool.
- The 1 damage dealt and 1 knockout come from blackjacking the major in order to bring him out of prison. Implied by objective and not a bust.
Galaer on 25/2/2024 at 08:40
@klatremus: About crates left on window - there is a problem. There is certain rule hidden in rule #7 of supreme ghosting about Putting Everything back that can be put back that prevents you doing that:
"You cannot stack boxes to gain access to an area when your stack is on the patrol path of an AI. If it can be done in a shadowed area off a patrol path or even in direct light where no one is patrolling, that is fine."
This rule prevents you leaving crate not only on patrol route, but bolded part prevents you from leaving them in lighted area near patrol route. This window is well lighten and room is visited by patrolling monk who can see crates. It's rarely used rule, but it's there. Also since rule is talking abvout stacking boxes I'm usually applying it to all stackable objects like rocks, potions, etc.
Since you are supreme ghosting Black Parade remember about this rule during your Mission 8 run (and maybe even Mission 9).
klatremus on 25/2/2024 at 21:43
I have never considered that part of the rule unless the stack is physically on the path (as where the enemy bumps into the boxes), or if it is just a few feet away in the light. Once it is in a different room or on a ledge or sill or something where the enemy would never go, I have considered it ok. In fact, I have never seen this part of the rule implemented before or cause a bust. The problem is this part of the rule is extremely vague. How far away do you judge enemies to be able to see? If you have a city mission for example and your stack is outside, then most places would be in view of at least one enemy. And what about stationary enemies? Since the rule only mentions patrollers, should you completely ignore stationary ones? Since it only mentions patrollers, I figured it was on the patrol path or very close to it. I didn't judge this window to be too close at all.
Also, this rule only targets stacks and not individual items. Why not? If you leave one box to block a door from closing, but leave enough room for an enemy patroller to walk past, then it is not a bust. How come that shouldn't be a bust, yet leaving two boxes on top of each other on a windowsill nearby is a bust? The total lack of consistency there has made me be very lenient with this rule and pretty much only count stacks that are physically on a path.
Galaer on 26/2/2024 at 15:40
To be honest I found a good method to judge if crates are too close to patrol route. Simply just crouch in the spot where you want to put crates and wait for patroller. If he will alert to you in any way, then that means he will see crates. If he will not alert, then it's safe to put crates there. From what I remember hiding in window 1st alert patrolling monk.
Of course rule about leaving crates on enemies path will not makes sense if enemy is stationary, but it will make sense leaving crates in shadow if they can turn towards them. If they can't turn you can lerave crates somewhere behind them.
Also rule mentions stack and not individual objects, because usually you need more than one crate to climb somewhere. But personally I don't care about number of objects - it can be one, two, three or more, I try to hide them all whenver I try supreme ghosting the mission (and I know it doesn't happen very often). Also rule mentions only one reason of this rule - gaining access to higher place. There can be more reasons like mentioned by you blocking door with potion, blocking portcullis from lowering or even leaving crate in order to fall on it without receiving fall damage. So if potion blocks door from closing, but enemy can go through thia door, I count that as supreme bust, because potion is on patroller's path. I understand that not everything can be mentioned in the rules.
As for the reason about this rule. The whole rule #7 is about realism, so this part also should be understood as part of realism. Realistically enemies would notice objects on their path and realistically they would also notice new objects left by thief. The purpose of supreme ghosting is to avoid leaving any kind of evidence thief was there. That's how I always understood this rule.
klatremus on 28/2/2024 at 04:27
Quote Posted by Galaer
Be careful, when close Garrett use light dagger, which reveal our position. So be sure that patrolling guard isn't nearby. Inside you will register 1 more damage, 1 knockout and 1 other kill. All at the same time. It's excused by objective.
This is from Patriot mission 8, Detective. I'd like to hear if you still think this is excused by the objective? I know this was the first campaign you wrote a report for and you might have changed your view on a few things since then. I think this is a clear bust. You have to blackjack the murderer in order to proceed, but nowhere in the objective does it say to do that. It only says: "
The murderer couldn't act on his own. Find out who is working behind the scenes.". It is possible to skip this whole objective, so you are not forced by the story to do this either. But even if you were, I'd still say it a pretty clear bust.
Galaer on 28/2/2024 at 07:37
Quote Posted by klatremus
This is from Patriot mission 8, Detective. I'd like to hear if you still think this is excused by the objective? I know this was the first campaign you wrote a report for and you might have changed your view on a few things since then. I think this is a clear bust. You have to blackjack the murderer in order to proceed, but nowhere in the objective does it say to do that. It only says: "
The murderer couldn't act on his own. Find out who is working behind the scenes.". It is possible to skip this whole objective, so you are not forced by the story to do this either. But even if you were, I'd still say it a pretty clear bust.
I think it's actually excused by objective. Like you said I need to find out who's mastermind and I can only find it out by interrogating murderer and to do that I need to KO him To be honest I count this objective the same as free Major objective from mission 7 - it doesn't state that I need to KO him, but that's the only way to complete this objective. Also notice that you don't remove murderer from scene, because he wakes up to talk with you, so he's still conscious. He gets removed, because poison kills him, but this completes objective. I had no idea you can skip this objective, but will you really do that? Mission feels incomplete if you skip it. The same like marbleman refused to skip part of mission in Catacombs of Knoss part 2 even though thanks to that it was possible to ghost it.
To be honest I thought you will ask me about bonus kill objective, which shows up only after killing guy and not before.
klatremus on 28/2/2024 at 22:07
I just checked if you can skip this objective and I was mistaken, you can't. That is, you can avoid the two scrolls that trigger that objective (I had to break the mission's sequence like you did to make this possible), but when you enter the murderer's bedroom at the end, it still triggers. I thought you could just find his house to complete that first objective and then end the mission, but it seems the keeper key doesn't become usable until after the interrogation scene.
Quote Posted by Galaer
I think it's actually excused by objective. Like you said I need to find out who's mastermind and I can only find it out by interrogating murderer and to do that I need to KO him
But just because you have to KO him to interrogate him doesn't excuse it. How could it? That means every story element that breaks a ghost rule that is required to eventually finish an objective is also allowed, and that is completely against the premise of the rules. Rule #11 says: "
Any mission objective that explicitly requires that one of the above rules be broken" and in the interpretation section: "
Any mission objective that explicitly demands that the player break one of the rules above is OK". The word 'explicitly' is used both times, which means it has to be written in the objective to clearly indicate that you have to break a ghost rule. The objective only directs you to: 'Find out who is working behind the scenes.' That is a very vague objective and doesn't tell you to do anything specific. Such info could be gotten from a readable, from eavesdropping, from talking to someone else, from talking to the murderer, but in no way does it say, or even imply, that anyone needs to be KOed.
In fact, if you excuse this, then you are doing exactly what the interpretation next explains: "
It is not acceptable, however, to incur a ghost bust that the player thinks is "necessary" to meet another objective. For example, it is not allowed to KO an AI or slash a banner simply because they stand in the way of meeting another objective, such as stealing something." These rules are made in order to precisely avoid what you are doing, to avoid excusing every element of a mission that is required to do from a design perspective in order to later complete a mandatory objective. Yes I know this event completes the objective, but not the knockout. You still have to interact with the enemy afterwards, poison the water, pick up the cup and give it to him. So this knockout by itself does not complete it, and even if it did, it doesn't explicitly say so in the rule.
Quote Posted by Galaer
To be honest I count this objective the same as free Major objective from mission 7 - it doesn't state that I need to KO him, but that's the only way to complete this objective.
But the objective says to "get him outside the monastery". In order to bring someone out, you have to pick him up, and the only way to do that is to blackjack him. This is even stated in the rules as a way of reasoning on the way the objectives are written: "
Kidnap Cavador (he must be KO'ed to be picked up)". To go from that to say that "Find out who is working behind the scenes" means you need to KO him is just not a fair comparison.
Quote Posted by Galaer
Also notice that you don't remove murderer from scene, because he wakes up to talk with you, so he's still conscious.
That has no bearing on the matter at all. You deal the damage and knock him out. If you knock out a guard, he will eventually wake up the next day, won't he?
Quote Posted by Galaer
I had no idea you can skip this objective, but will you really do that? Mission feels incomplete if you skip it. The same like marbleman refused to skip part of mission in Catacombs of Knoss part 2 even though thanks to that it was possible to ghost it.
Whether the mission feels incomplete is besides the point. I agree it does, but if it means being able to Ghost the mission, so be it. As it happens, this mission isn't ghostable now since you can't skip that objective after all. I know nothing about Catacombs of Knoss so I can't comment on that.
Quote Posted by Galaer
To be honest I thought you will ask me about bonus kill objective, which shows up only after killing guy and not before.
To be honest, I didn't read this part of your report very closely, because I assumed you skipped it since it is easily skippable. Yes that too is a bust, because you don't even have the objective in your list when you are dealing the damage. Whether he thanks you or not has no impact on ghosting and doesn't suddenly change the rules.
Galaer on 29/2/2024 at 15:54
In most cases you are absolutely wrong and I'm going to explian you why. Starting from " it is
not allowed to KO an AI or slash a banner simply because they stand in the way of meeting another objective" rule. Have in mind, this murderer
isn't standing in my way to any location where objective gets completed. It's pretty clear that this rule is talking about enemy or banner blocking passage to area where objective gets completed. In other words this rule is made to prevent doing regular knockout run for the sake of completing objectives at the end. In this case it's quite opposite - it's very easy to sneak past him and get everywhere. I'm KO-ing him, because it's part of objective. That's the only reason.
Sure, objective doesn't mention that, but objective in mission 7 also says nothing about KO. You say it's the only way to complete this objective, but the same goes about mission 8 objective. After all, in order to get information you need to interrogate murder and in order to interrogate him you need to capture him and in order to capture him you need to KO him. And this KO is even better than from mission 7, because it immediately triggers scripted conversation that completes objective. For mission 7 escort you need to wait until you bring body to exit.
And you prove your reasoning by mentioning kidnap Cavador objective, which is funny, because official ghost rules were created for the sake of OMs, so it only applies strictly to them. Your reasoning is that this kind of objective and solution for it doesn't appear in OMs, therefore it's not excusable problem. But have in mind, these rules only take into account problems from OMs, which are over 20 years old and not new problems created in FMs by their authors. So unlike OMs it's impossible to apply these rules 1 to 1 towards FMs. You need to apply them with some flexibility.
The same goes about bonus objectives. You say that doing it in this mission is ghost bust, but show me the rule about that. Ghost rules only mention regular objectives. Supreme ghost rules also add optional and cancelled objectives. But there is no mention anywhere about bonus objectives and they are different from others. They are invisible for player until you perform certain task that completes them and makes them visible. It would be discriminatory to not excuse them based on their special nature. That's why it always felt natural for me to excuse ghost bust if it immediately triggers bonus objective to appear.
And why these objectives not appear in the rules? Simply, in OMs there is never any situation when ghost busts trigger bonus objectives. That's another reason why you need to be flexible when applying official rules to FMs.
The same goes with crate stack rule you were so weirded about. That's because these rules have been created over 20 years ago and in Olddark, so there was only old mantle and there was only one way to use crates in supreme ghost - for getting higher. Same goes about lack of rule about disabling traps - this doesn't happen in OMs. In other words official ghost rules are simply outdated when you try to strictly apply them to FMs, you need to be more flexible about these rules.
As for me mentioning morality of skipping content. It's because I remember you made comment about marbleman's approach in (
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146197&p=2426772&viewfull=1#post2426772) Catacombs of Knoss when you agreed with him not skipping part of mission just because it was possible to ghosted . Also I remember you weren't satisfied with me posting my successful ghost run of (
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150710&p=2500381&viewfull=1#post2500381) Events in Highrock , because I skipped part of mission and part of story. I guess these aspects aren't that important for you anymore.
klatremus on 29/2/2024 at 21:12
Let me ask you this, Galaer: If you had to break in the door to the murderer's house or slash a banner in order to get into the bedroom and that was the only way in, would you allow that for Ghost?
As for Catacombs of Knoss, I simply said if it breaks immersion, I understood him skipping it. However, that was from my understanding a significant amount of the mission then being missed. In Detective it is only 1 room with the murderer that must be skipped. That is a very minor part of the mission size wise. Listen, I never said I would love to skip that room, but if it means ghosting the mission successfully instead of busting, then I totally would in order to report the success. My point was that whether it feels incomplete or breaks immersion, it doesn't matter when it comes to applying the rules of ghosting.
As for Events in Highrock, what do you mean I wasn't satisfied with you posting a successful run? I simply said it was sad you had to skip major areas in order to get the success... If I had to skip half the mission in Detective, I would equally be sad. I'd much rather prefer being able to Ghost the whole thing though.
What do you mean those aspects aren't important? In (
https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150710&p=2513020&viewfull=1#post2513020) this post I said that exact thing, that I agree the mission feels incomplete. However, it's not going to stop me from trying to successfully ghost a mission.
smithpd on 29/2/2024 at 21:59
Quote Posted by klatremus
This is from Patriot mission 8, Detective. I'd like to hear if you still think this is excused by the objective? I know this was the first campaign you wrote a report for and you might have changed your view on a few things since then. I think this is a clear bust. You have to blackjack the murderer in order to proceed, but nowhere in the objective does it say to do that. It only says: "
The murderer couldn't act on his own. Find out who is working behind the scenes.". It is possible to skip this whole objective, so you are not forced by the story to do this either. But even if you were, I'd still say it a pretty clear bust.
I agree with Klatremus on this point. It was agreed when this exception to the rule first came out that any violation of a basic ghosting rule can be approved only if the violation is explicitly required by a mission objective. The knockout is not a mission objective, so it is a bust. Furthermore, I think that "I had to do it to complete the mission" it's not a valid. Thinking back, I think a lot of the exceptions we agreed to made things unnecessarily complicated.
Good to see that there are still people who have an interest in ghosting!
Peter Smith.