Bakerman on 15/3/2010 at 01:08
I've seen it mentioned many times that climbing gloves were an inferior mechanic to rope arrows because you could only travel where the developers specifically allowed you to. But the same argument applies to rope arrows - if the level designers don't put any wood in a convenient location, rope arrows won't help you.
Is there something technical that I've missed? Or was it simply the case that LGS was better at designing levels that empowered the player than IS was?
Believability, practicality, etc. aside, are rope arrows superior to climbing gloves for letting the player move freely?
Note - I believe there are other arguments for rope arrows over climbing gloves. Mostly the fact that they are ranged. However, I always see the argument that rope arrows let you go wherever you like, whereas climbing glove use is constrained by the devs.
Illuminatus on 15/3/2010 at 01:36
How exactly can you use climbing gloves to climb up in the middle of a room? Or climb down into a wide abyss? Or swing from place to place? Or navigate a wide open void? The differences are totally obvious, just imagine the situations you used rope arrows in the Bonehoard or Constantine's mansion; most of the time you weren't even close to a wall.
Dia on 15/3/2010 at 02:25
Plus ..... there are the vine arrows which seem to be able to be embedded into surfaces other than wood (sometimes) (at least in some FMs).
I've found that rope arrows can be embedded into almost any wooden surface that is seemingly just there as part of the architecture, whether the devs intended for you to be able to do that or not (i.e. - the open wooden shutter of a window). Maybe it's a crapshoot, but at least you have a better chance at scaling something than with climbing gloves, which you can only use in strictly specified areas.
There's also the fact that climbing gloves fail as a fashion statement. :p
Chade on 15/3/2010 at 02:54
Dia, that's just wrong. No thief game hardcodes the specific walls which can be climbed on.
Both climbing gloves and rope arrows can be used in unique ways. Rope arrows let you move vertically through open air. Climbing gloves allow you to navigate walls freely. The real story here is about level design, as you suggest.
(Oh, and you can't climb around corners or bumps in T3. This is a significant implementation flaw.)
Hit Deity on 15/3/2010 at 04:45
Really? My version of TDS limited the player (Garrett) to only climbing certain, highly restricted areas. Did you get the SuperDeluxe Edition or something? Maybe it's been way too long since I played TDS...
No matter what implementation: the gloves were a "dumbed-down" version of the rope/vine arrows, IMO. You definitely couldn't swing from one dangling rope to the next ala-Tarzan with those damned gloves. Hated 'em. :grr:
Namdrol on 15/3/2010 at 08:18
There were only certain walls the gloves could be used on, recently though one of the T3 Eds said that every wall in TDS had the potential to be climbed on.
Avalon on 15/3/2010 at 08:32
Quote Posted by Hit Deity
You definitely couldn't swing from one dangling rope to the next ala-Tarzan with those damned gloves.
Yep. The options with gloves are so much fewer than rope arrows, even if they both restrict you to certain types of surfaces that they can be used on. Gloves restrict you to walls, but surfaces to land an arrow in can be put anywhere. It seems like the difference is between 2d and 3d.
Beleg Cúthalion on 15/3/2010 at 08:36
Every brick wall. But you can be stopped by beams or trims for instance. I remember alternative climbing glove routes in the Wieldstrom Museum, Keeper Compound (the council hall), Seaside Mansion (on the outside with the 2nd floor door), hidden loot in SQ, OQ, Auldale, maybe SM (?) and in general you were able to flee critical situations by climbing up a few metres.
In the end it's a question of implementation. I don't think it's true that you have "reasonable" alternative routes just because of rope arrows and a bit of wood in the architecture, but rather that the devs also planned routes for rope arrow use (or placed hidden loot which is almost just as determined). Maybe it's the element of creating a route oneself (by shooting an arrow and thus constructing a new way in between) which makes rope arrows so überexciting. In the end both are borderline fantasy. Rope arrows probably wouldn't work the way they are (that means I haven't had time to test my pretty arrow head yet) and climbing gloves are pointless, either you are able to climb (and it always buggered me that Garrett couldn't climb a simple steel fence in TDP/TMA) or not. That's why I'd like to see a general climbing system in T4. And maybe a grappling hook. :sly:
Chade on 15/3/2010 at 10:24
Quote Posted by Avalon
It seems like the difference is between 2d and 3d.
This is hugely misleading. A single rope arrows gives you 1d movement. It is possible to jump between rope arrows, but this is a cumbersome and restricted form of 3d movement. Rope arrows have many advantages: it is not necessary to invent fictitious ones to make your point.
On a different note, I have never been under the impression that climbing gloves were artificially restricted to certain textures (and indeed, they aren't). It's strange that so many people came away with the wrong impression - I can't think of any reason to believe that.
Finally, climbing gloves are not just useful for exploration (something T3 didn't excel at anyway). Easy 2d movement along walls gives you a flexibility that can be useful during normal stealth gameplay. I just wish that you didn't get stopped by minor obstacles ...
Jarvis on 15/3/2010 at 23:19
Quote Posted by Bakerman
Or was it simply the case that LGS was better at designing levels that empowered the player than IS was?
Yes. Which is hard to say considering IS brought us the original Deus Ex. But considering TDS and DE:IW, the answer to the above question is a resounding yes.
However, there is an inherent difference between gloves and ropes arrows. In my opinion, Garrett should be able to just climb appropriate surfaces (screw the gloves), AND have rope arrows to boot. Assassin's Creed took climbable surfaces a little bit too far... but I do think Garrett should be able to scale pipes, shimmy ledges, and climb window sills.
