Freedom: rope arrows and climbing gloves

theBlackman on 16/3/2010 at 07:30

Quote Posted by Chade

Dia, that's just wrong. No thief game hardcodes the specific walls which can be climbed on.

[...] Climbing gloves allow you to navigate walls freely. [...]
(Oh, and you can't climb around corners or bumps in T3. This is a significant implementation flaw.)

Wrong on all counts. In the CLOCK TOWER you need to traverse the wall. In Auldale you can climb texture "A" at a particular place, but can't climb the same texture 4 feet to one side. This is true of other places throughout the game. You can also go around corners if you are careful.

Same thing elsewhere, the docks, the Inn, and other areas. I know that TDS hardcoded areas you were locked out of. The best example is when you leave the fence's house when the Keeper assassins are after you.

If you cross to the roof to your left front (where the barrel is overlooking the street) there is a low wall on your right. You are prevented from getting on top of it or over it. It can be defeated, but you are locked out of that area on the right, if you attempt a normal mantle to the top of the wall, or a jump to the top.

The gloves would not be bad if, and if is the operative here, they worked on all like textures wherever you encountered them. But they do not. They are specific to specific wall textures in specific areas.

In fact they allow you to climb OUT OF THE MAP. In Auldale when you approach the mezzanine where the jeweler is, you can climb the pillars of the arches on the mezzanine (porch, balcony) and go out of the map into a blank area behind the texture.

Beleg Cúthalion on 16/3/2010 at 08:52

Do you mean this surface?
(http://s6b.directupload.net/file/d/2100/gj4skvk6_jpg.htm)

Inline Image:

http://s6b.directupload.net/images/100316/temp/gj4skvk6.jpg

It actually is climbable, it's just that the collision hull of the little tower in the middle is blocking large areas of the rooftop, which sort of confirms that it's there by accident. But you would only be able to climb either out of the map or a bit along that shale roof, so there is no reasonable "way" which is blocked by that. There is a house static mesh in the Fort Ironwood courtyard which has a non-climbable chimney (probably because it is sloped), but that wouldn't give you any new possibility either. So unless you want to blame the devs for trying not to get you out of the map...

I'd like to hear a better description of the Auldale thing as well. No doubt they blocked the way (or had to since you would be able to climb out at lots of surfaces) often but IMHO never to prevent logical pathways.

Serpentine on 16/3/2010 at 09:43

I had no huge issues with them, however while there is a small duplication of features with rope arrows and climbing - there is no "this will confuse the player" to block using them both, considering one was a feature of previous games in the series without any real negative feelings about them; As such they were replaced to be a gimmick which was just stupid.

The other thing which made me question them is that they break the fluidity of movement very badly. Rope arrows were quick, required no time sink mechanic and could be placed in far more places. To expand on that, when you wanted to climb you had to run to the wall then get the gloves, then watch an animation attach you to the wall wasting time and losing control(something that the series never did anywhere else); You had to stand still to attach yourself backing up the previous point; Rope arrows didnt allow you to move anywhere - but there were a very wide range of potential places while walls you had to know where they were, there was no way to prepare a room for doing something, there was no way to suddenly get a second or two lead from a guard to 'create a wall' and quickly escape.

theBlackman on 16/3/2010 at 09:45

Beleg Cúthalion
No. Behind you on your right as you look across the street, is a knee high wall. You can't mantle onto or jump over that wall unless you use some exotic thiefy tricks.

There is a sloping roof along the street and a roof that crosses to the other side of the street.

I've been over the wall and along the roofs to the flat roof you can see and the door that is the exit from another mission (if you get in there there is no place to go) where you end up on that flat roof.

As you approach the barrel and the street, look to your right and you'll see the wall.

Beleg Cúthalion on 16/3/2010 at 13:09

This one then?
(http://s2b.directupload.net/file/d/2100/edeupiej_jpg.htm)

Inline Image:

http://s2b.directupload.net/images/100316/temp/edeupiej.jpg

The wall itself is climbable and after the third try I even mangaged to get onto the beams. You cannot do much from there since the sky is very low (see the ugly faces), but except for that there is no climbable-looking texture made unclimbable or willfully blocked. :erg:

theBlackman on 16/3/2010 at 19:40

No again. Stand on the roof back about 15 feet from the edge. With the barrel to your left front.

Directly to the right is a low wall. About 0.75 meters high. A parappet between the roof you are on and the roof to your right.

Not the wall of a building. A low parappet.

To put it another way. Walk to the edge and look into the street. Now BACKUP to the middle of the flat roof. LOOK RIGHT. There is a low wall/parrapet that separates the flat roof you are on from the roof to your right.

Tenkahubu on 16/3/2010 at 21:06

So far the main feature of the gloves has been to give me the freedom to climb into bugged areas from where I do not have the freedom to return :mad:

I think that climbing fits the general thief feel, but not in such a half-hearted way.

Rope arrows are silly, but better silly and fun than sacrificing a very small amount of silly for much less fun in the form of the gloves.

Jarvis on 16/3/2010 at 21:28

lol

I enjoyed the movement afforded by rope arrows so much that it is easy to forget how silly they are. It's ridiculous that Garret can pull one out of its purchase while he's hanging from it. I just called it "magic" and got back to enjoying the game.

But you are right though, I think, about silliness and fun. The main issue with the climbing gloves was the atrocious implementation. There is room in Thief for both.

Chade on 17/3/2010 at 03:03

Quote Posted by theBlackman

In the CLOCK TOWER you need to traverse the wall.

That has nothing to do with my argument ... ?

Quote Posted by theBlackman

In Auldale you can climb texture "A" at a particular place, but can't climb the same texture 4 feet to one side.

My general impression is that you are referring to a handfull of highly specific instances which have several possible explanations. Personally I never had any trouble climbing brick walls while playing T3.

Unfortunately I do not have the time to go into the game and investigate specific walls, so I'll have to defer to Beleg.

theBlackman on 17/3/2010 at 04:23

Quote Posted by Chade

That has nothing to do with my argument ... ?

My general impression is that you are referring to a handfull of highly specific instances which have several possible explanations. Personally I never had any trouble climbing brick walls while playing T3.

Unfortunately I do not have the time to go into the game and investigate specific walls, so I'll have to defer to Beleg.

Brick is not the issue. Many of the walls you climb are granite block or rough stone. And the fact remains that you can climb a wall, move 3 to 5 feet to one side to a wall of exactly the same texture and cannot climb it.

You say you can't go around corners, but you can. The clocktower central opening is an example.