A.Stahl on 26/2/2019 at 08:16
Prepare yourselves to a huge amount of whine (all done in the eastern-European style of English language).
I've played (I mean at least started) ~80% of Thief2 FMs ever made. It took me a few years and now I have something to say to you.
1) Do you like platformers games? Like Super Mario? I don't. But I suppose somebody like. Please tell the player somehow at the very beginning that this particular FM will force player to jump-jump-jump. Do you know what jumps are? They are "load game". Jump-load-jump-load-jump-load. Is it exciting? Doubtly for most of players.
Once (It's just an example, to be true I've been it this situation far too more times than I wanted to be) I came to the large gap with lava on the bottom and with obvious need to get to the other side. Gap was underground and there were some wooden planks on the ceiling. Distance was something about 30-40 meters. I had 3-4 rope arrows. Image all this fun to arrange arrows in the way for passing over the lava. Shoot-load-shoot-load-shoot-load? No! Shoot-shoot-shoot-jump-load... Is it exciting? I don't think so.
2) Vertical ladders. It isn't just the curse of all 90-00 year games, they are very inconvenient and often lead to unnecessary loading. They are just ridiculously ridiculous. Just look around. How much this thing do you see? Please avoid them. They a logical in some kind of barns and as a fireexits, but they are unfit as ladders in living quarters.
3) Zombies. We have sword-killable zombies and temporary sword-disable zombies. Please, try to give player chance to safely explore the level (we all know how you like to hide important things and force player to visit same rooms more than once). Use more permanently-disabling zombies if you think that you must use zombies. Or, at least, try more creative approach to the question. You don't want to give firearrows, water or flashbombs? How about give a player the opportuniry to turn on the generator which power bright lamps which destroy or scare off the unkillable zombies? use you imagination, don't force the player just to be helpless. Or, at least, tell about this at the beginning of the mission.
4) Logic. Use it. Once I needed a key. I found a clue: a letter with "I've lost a key somewhere in the city". Yes, it was a big city map. I've found a key behind a bars at waterdrain. Far avay from house where this key belongs to.
5) No, too many guards doesn't make gameplay better. This just adds chores. No, unknockable guards are not fun too. Those who like forced stealth will stealth anyway. But those who don't...
6) I have dozens of complains but I just tired. It is very difficult to write in foreighn language. And trying to do it in understandible way.
ZylonBane on 26/2/2019 at 09:42
You're right, mission authors should be using horizonal ladders instead of vertical ladders.
Psych0sis on 26/2/2019 at 09:50
ty^
DirkBogan on 26/2/2019 at 09:58
I agree or sympathise with many of these points. However, I think the point about jumps/mantling/rope arrows is very subjective. I and many others enjoy vertical missions; many of these have jumps that you can miss. If Thief 1/2 only had autosaves or checkpoints, these jumps would be very annoying. However, on a modern computer, it takes a fraction of a second to press quicksave before a jump and press quickload if you make a mistake. The only way to cut out this tiny amount of 'wasted' time would be to cut out any remotely challenging gameplay, so you never or very rarely have to load a save. I think this alternative would make Thief a very boring and one-dimensional game. It would be like walking around a flat circle with some buildings or caves you can walk into.
Or, maybe every jump can be a canned animation like in many modern games, where you watch Garrett taking a jump or climbing something instead of doing it yourself... and then what is the point of playing the game, if all the interesting and exciting actions are done automatically? I find saving before a jump much less annoying and boring than a game where all the fun parts are done by the game itself!
But of course, this is just my preference. It is not right for everyone. Some people like zombies in Thief; you and I agree that they are terrible in a stealth game!
A.Stahl on 26/2/2019 at 10:20
Quote Posted by DirkBogan
on a modern computer, it takes a fraction of a second to press quicksave before a jump and press quickload if you make a mistake.
Saves are fast, indeed. But loads are not. I don't discourage to use ropes at all. Rope arrows are the killer-feature of Thief 1-2. I just want to tell that all things are bad if they are too many. Like alcohol. Few bottles of beer are great. Few litres are not that bad. 5-6 litres per day will broke your health in a few months :)
I don't mind to rope-jump here and there. But I DO mind to do it 5-6 times in a row with a need to reload after every mistake.
Judith on 26/2/2019 at 10:53
If you have to reload a lot because of failed jumps or ledge grabs, it's a design failure. Making arcade sections for such an old engine/movement model is a mistake from the get go. The engine isn't fit for this. You can make other things challenging and rewarding, like finding weak spots in enemy patrols, which is one of the fundamentals of stealth gameplay. There's nothing like finding your way inside otherwise "impenetrable" building or location.
DirkBogan on 26/2/2019 at 11:21
I did not mean to give the impression that I have to load very often. Quicksaving is simply a precaution I take, one that >95 percent of the time is unnecessary. I mainly do it because the rope arrows in Thief 1/2 have a habit of glitching out; every other time I load it is because I made an input error (jumped too early, facing the wrong way etc.). In OldDark, mantling was annoying; it just wouldn't work half the time. In NewDark, I personally find that it only fails if I miss a ledge entirely. Holding the spacebar down always works.
I am playing with a mouse and keyboard, however. I recognise that many FMs would be way more frustrating if I was playing with a controller: it would make jumping, mantling, leaning, quicksaving, and really any precise coordination of camera and movement more difficult. The original games are fine to play with a controller, except maybe parts of Constantine's Mansion and Angelwatch/Soulforge. I definitely empathise with Thief fans who don't use mouse and keyboard; so many FMs are made with the assumption that the player plays Thief like a twitch shooter or a parkour game.
But I do think there is a place for those FMs, and I have personally gotten a lot of unique gameplay satisfaction from this style. For example, I have never played another game that was enjoyable the way Rose Garden or Sound of A Burrick In A Room are enjoyable. Exploring nooks and crannies in a vertical city is a rare experience. But these are not to everybody's taste.
A.Stahl on 26/2/2019 at 11:26
Yes! It is the very thing I am talking about. Like too narrow ventilation shafts where I can't easily fit just by crouching. The situation when the player needs to fight not with game problems but with engine problems.
Praise to the new_mantle which dismissed one of many huge problems :)
Psych0sis on 26/2/2019 at 12:12
Quote Posted by Judith
If you have to reload a lot because of failed jumps or ledge grabs, it's a design failure. Making arcade sections for such an old engine/movement model is a mistake from the get go. The engine isn't fit for this.
I have to disagree with this. Moving around vertical environments with engine-derived mechanics like mantling or rope arrows is a core component of thief gameplay, there's a reason it's taught in the tutorial section, along with other basic movement techniques like jumping across gaps and such, and was a pretty important part in the main game's OMs. The game's movement model stands up pretty well also, not sure why people keep saying its outdated or old, and it plays perfectly well with missions where you have to scale great heights and maneuver around rooftops.
I've never seen any issues with FM authors who want to incorporate this
core gameplay mechanic into their FMs. Perhaps I need to watch more GDC conferences.
Judith on 26/2/2019 at 12:23
In every OM, rope arrows are either completely optional or unavailable at start, and traversal uses jumping and mantling in moderate manner, unlike FMs with Mario jump sections, or mandatory rope arrow sections.
Quote:
Perhaps I need to watch more GDC conferences.
Perhaps you should. In this context there's one that would be useful in particular, it's called "How to help your players stop saving all the time", and it's by ex-LGSer.
