Muzman on 15/11/2009 at 04:30
Quote Posted by Zygoptera
I checked cs11 beforehand since i had the TG CDs right next to the computer and C basically says his children (the apebeasts that turn up in the next mission, presumably, or the plants) need to feed. I would have thought they could do that as easily on a dead G as a live one, and that would make any rescue moot.
In any case I'm happy enough with a bit of contrivance when it's wedded to otherwise excellent execution, and it's a very rare story in any medium which doesn't have "why didn't they just do that" moments. But while I do think it qualifies as an excellent, and well executed, twist I'd have to say that I don't think it qualifies as good storytelling- from a purely "technical" or "deconstructivist" standpoint.
Which is, of course, a horrible way to look at stories whether game or anything else so well, carry on.
There's nothing wrong with that really, it's just that slightly sinky feeling of destroying the magic that is a bit hard to take.
Anyway I'd argue that it's very good writing in Thief's case. The problem is familiarity. It's like 'Aragorn falls off a cliff' in a way; people react badly too it because they know the form and think they're ahead of the story's tropish trickery. But that's not neccessarily what's going on (in the Aragorn case, I seriously doubt they wanted the audience to think he might be dead or thought they would. But the audience often thought they were doing that and didn't like it).
Ok, it's
better writing, to avoid those situations entirely, but Thief is being quite traditional in its form on purpose and it goes out of its way to earn these traditional points most of the time. I think we're supposed to take it that there's something ceremonial about leaving G to expire in a temple like that. He's unconscious and they've spent a lot of effort getting hold of an independant, no strings attached kind of guy unlikely to have help. The Keepers, knowing stuff as they do, take this as the only time they'll be able to get close enough without tipping their hand. Granted it could be more clearly drawn, but whatareyougoingtodo. There's enough there in the game to set this part up nicely. More mysterious is why, after the big rescue and presumably needing the man for more later on, they don't help him escape a little better. There's some expanations why they might (they're cowards/rubbish athletes/fighters etc, there's some stuff they want G to see for himself maybe?, blah blah) but they're thinner, for my money. Otherwise it's a well earned climax.
The Half-Life bit is rubbish though, as are the levels that follow it. For one of the supposed best games of all time with writing awards and so on, that sequence is a blight. You could cut that whole bit out and the game would improve immensely.
june gloom on 15/11/2009 at 06:14
As much as I hate the section immediately after the trash compactor, I would propose changing it to be less fucking boring than excising it entirely.
EvaUnit02 on 15/11/2009 at 06:19
Residue Processing is AMAZING, in comparison to fucking Xen.
Muzman on 15/11/2009 at 07:16
I love Xen and think everyone who complained about it back in the day as well as now are a whiny bunch of bitches who must be shit at games.
Provacative? Moi?
Volitions Advocate on 15/11/2009 at 07:21
Has anybody complained yet about Stalker? In the garbage when those 2 bandits ambush you and you're conveniently left with your PDA which somehow knows where all your gear is. That part ticked me off.
june gloom on 15/11/2009 at 07:28
I'm not a fan of the way Xen was implemented in HL1, but in Blue Shift it was a bit more tolerable. And in the Someplace Else mod (prequel to Minerva and just as good) it's fantastic.
EvaUnit02 on 15/11/2009 at 07:50
A megaton of shitty platforming sections (HERE'S THE LONG JUMP MODULE, ONLY USED DURING THIS PART OF THE GAME) + a severe lack of cover to dodge Vortigaunt blasts = tons of fun.
Melan on 15/11/2009 at 08:35
Quote Posted by doctorfrog
Even worse than this for me was the "you must fuck yourself up beyond all recognition to become a big daddy to get through this door." I could swallow "would you kindly inject yourself," but: mangle my voice, permanently bolt a dive suit to my body, genetically make myself stink so I'm attractive to little sisters, all so I can spend ten seconds passing through a door? There's no way around? What about a harder, more dangerous side mission where I don a dive suit, pick up a welder, and attempt to break my way through underwater? No choice, eh?
That's where a game that had already thoroughly undermined its carefully set-up themes of free will with the "Would you kindly" nonsense finally lost even a semblance of caring about them. Here you are, freed from mind control, and you have to
mangle yourself beyond recognition to proceed through a
door? Unless it is meta-commentary about how gamers will take anything just to collect their plot points and get on with the game, it is an incredibly shitty thing to do.
Oh wait, they followed it up with an
escort mission. Was that satire? An excursion into absurdity? An experiment to see if they will still get 10/10 reviews even if they fuck up everything beyond all recognition? Or was the bar really set that low? Mpfh. :rolleyes:
nicked on 15/11/2009 at 08:49
Quote Posted by EvaUnit02
A megaton of shitty platforming sections (HERE'S THE LONG JUMP MODULE, ONLY USED DURING THIS PART OF THE GAME) + a severe lack of cover to dodge Vortigaunt blasts = tons of fun.
I'm torn when it comes to Xen. On the one hand, the setting is fantastic. From a screenshot point of view it's amazing - this utterly alien, weirdly organic place that defies logic and the laws of physics. On the other hand, the gameplay was pointless platforming mixed with fights that ramped the difficulty just beyond the frustration line.
Xen was much better in the claustrophobic indoor sections, where you had plenty of cover, and the art direction made it feel almost like you were squeezing through the internal organs of a weird giant creature.
It was handled much better in the addon packs, mainly due to it coming earlier in the story and therefore being easier.
june gloom on 15/11/2009 at 11:18
And, at least as far as OpFor was concerned, it barely made any appearance at all.
That said, the best implementation of Xen I've seen so far is, as mentioned above, Someplace Else. It's just a solitary map but it's gorgeous and quite difficult.
