TheGrimSmile on 22/3/2008 at 12:21
I really like the phrase "explodes all over the place"...
Anyway, it does make sense that he was charmed in my mind, as he didn't ever go to the Hammers for help, even though they let him get by with a lot of things and he never once thanked them (not literally thank but, uh, didn't steal from as much)
In addition to that, wouldn't the Hammers, who have been working with metal and, albeit little, some machinery, be able to give more help with the Mechanists? The other option being a group of people who, though they despise the Mechanists, don't know much about how to stop them.
Lastly, I find that if Garrett had not been charmed in some way, he wouldn't have done a lot of the stuff he did. "Do you know what it took to get into that office?! I don't appreciate you wasting my time..." Now, in Life of the Party, regular Garrett probably would have demanded more information before he just dived into the mission. Not to mention, he added loot as an afterthought! He's a thief, for goodness' sakes!
Viktoria replies "Is this Garrett, the master thief, I hear talking?" In a rather calm voice, rather odd after his anger, as if she knew she could win him over (or that may be my mind jumping to conclusions)
Garrett replies "Just... give me the details" almost as if he was going to say something else. In fact, I'm sure he would have normally packed his bags and gone about things his own way, maybe using Viktoria as an informant. However, by the end of the conversation, he seems to have forgotten about his fromer outburst.
Viki: "And-"
G:"Don't forget to pickpocket the party guests"
At this point, Garrett is no longer angry and, after this little tidbit, Viktoria kind of giggles like she's done something.
In any case, that's just how I see it.
Gambit on 22/3/2008 at 18:05
When I think about the "spellbound" ... It´s a valid interpretation.
That blood oath was very vague and it was intended to leave us players to make our own interpretations. A real "curse" or just an old pagan ritual...
The fact is Vik intended to link Garrett to her. If the magic worked or not, that´s harder to tell, because most that Garrett does afterwards could be done without being "enchanted".
The alliance: Garrett would do it. Oath or no oath. Before meeting Vic he was like a lost mosquito trying to survive. He only managed to get some clues on his ennemies with the help of the Keepers. He needed more information and the only the "pagans/Citywatch and Pirate Island spies" could provide it. Vik already had a lot of intelligence/spying business infiltrated in the pagan/mech war. So Garrett really needed her for the all the info without losing time.
Lotus: Here we see a pagan spy dying a terrible death. He´s not a direct ennemy of Garrett. He doesn´t own him money. He is not his fencer. So obviously Garrett is gonna fell a little bit of sorrow, he´s cold but not souless. I think this reminded him of the horror of losing his eye and being left for dead. He fought he was a goner until Artemus saved him.
That sort of shakes someone´s view of the world. He just became a "little" less cocky and selfish. Seeing Lotus must have reminded him that scene.
jtr7 on 22/3/2008 at 19:03
Here's where I should begin to emphasize that he wasn't under Viki's total control. He was made suggestable and amenable, yet allowed to remain as much of himself as to feel he was in control of himself, 'cause it's a fundamental character trait that he likes to be in control of his own life.
The scene with Lotus was character-breaking. Garrett's tone is consoling. Calling Lotus "my friend" when he doesn't call ANYone his friend, even though he shows more real friendship to Basso, should be a giveaway. That scene with Lotus is not liked much by many or most taffers. I propose it's precisely because it doesn't fit Garrett, and the reason for it to make sense is that Garrett has been made amenable to his enemies.
TDS gives us canonical "proof" that even Viktoria's lessers can exert mind-control. The type of creature Viktoria is, and her skillset, is about persuasion.
Renault on 22/3/2008 at 21:17
I always took the "my friend" comment to be sympahty - Lotus was dying. Garrett may be a thief, but we all know he has a heart of gold. Just about anyone would have had sympathy for Lotus at that point. If Lotus had been completely healthy, Garrett would have treated him much differently.
theBlackman on 23/3/2008 at 01:28
Again, I tend to agree with Brethren, the term "my friend", is used often with strangers, and sometimes sarcastically, although in this case, I think it was just a form of address that was "neutral" rather than using Lotus' name.
My friend, allows discourse without real intimacy, in the circumstances, a useful, albeit innocuous term.
jtr7 on 23/3/2008 at 02:01
Yes, Brethren, sympathy. It never stood out for you as a somewhat unusual amount of caring for a stranger's life up to that point?
With all the effort of several people required to write, plan, paint, film, act, manipulate, record audio, mix it, and put it all together for the blood oath parts of the cutscene, I will not dismiss it.
He did so much more for Basso, even for Jennivere, and only called him an "associate" behind his back. Heh. But we know there was less sympathy involved and Basso wasn't dying. :p
I'll put up your airs a ways, BroRenault, but playing semantics or hyper-focusing on a tree when I'm trying to show more of the forest I find enthralling and rich...isn't constructive. For every single focal point, I'm looking at it in the context of the trilogy. If you don't understand my concepts, in any of my posts, there's a good chance it's because you are hyper-focused, while I am looking at many facets at once. If I don't type it all out, or give a disclaimer, it's up to you to know your way of processing information is not mine.
Gambit on 23/3/2008 at 02:52
Less sympathy for Basso ?
He pratically decides to scape a maximum security prison carrying extra weigth that is NOT made out of loot.
And after that he decides to rescue Basso´s fiance. He could just steal the mansion and then flee leaving Basso all alone, but he still COMES BACK TO HIM with a funny bird wistle and helps him with the scape.
It´s not a matter of having less sympathy. It´s a matter that Garrett is very... introverted. He´s like those hard people that think that showing their emotions is a weakness. He was more extroverted with Lotus because the guy was dying. And since Lotus was leaving there would be no problem to show his sorrow.
jtr7 on 23/3/2008 at 02:54
My smilies' not showing up in your browser?:sly:
Read that part of my post with a sense of humor and friendly sarcasm. I could detail all the lengths that Garrett went to for someone whose sister must've been HAWT!
Why should he care for Basso? Pfthbpt!
And what...is...UP with him giving a damn about Jennivere, AND upholding her wishes not to kill anyone during the rescue, lest she be (gasp!) aghast?
And finding two gold rings and not even having the option to take them as loot? WTF?
By the way, Brethren, did you ever write up a story guide/synopsis for Metal Age. too?
Renault on 23/3/2008 at 07:44
Quote Posted by jtr7
I'll put up your airs a ways, BroRenault, but playing semantics or hyper-focusing on a tree when I'm trying to show more of the forest I find enthralling and rich...isn't constructive. For every single focal point, I'm looking at it in the context of the trilogy. If you don't understand my concepts, in any of my posts, there's a good chance it's because you are hyper-focused, while I am looking at many facets at once. If I don't type it all out, or give a disclaimer, it's up to you to know your way of processing information is not mine.
Wow, do you even realize how arrogant and condescending this paragraph sounds?
jtr7 on 23/3/2008 at 08:39
Like the story elements of the Thief games, that paragraph can be taken in many ways. Imagine it starting out as a playful tease, soon overwhelmed by the not knowing what your agenda is, and you'll know the tone I wrote it with. You have been a taffer to me. I have to poke at you.:erg: I admit I don't trust you, nor your hostile opinion of me, and it's going to show. I meant it to call attention to the fact that I don't know what you are hoping to gain with your comments about my temporary word choices, and if you are really trying to be helpful, those comments aren't helpful, because they fall outside of what I'm doing, and seem to be presumptuous about my methods and resources. I will continue in my goal of seeking a Unified Theory of the Thief Universe, which includes seeking answers to address the common problems taffers have had with parts of the story over the years. What does canon allow? What fanon idea would bridge the canon gaps without breaking it? How can the community's perceived breaks already within the canon be sealed, leaving the canon intact?
I don't know what "voice" you use, or what inflections, or emotion you read my regular posts with, but it must be offensive. It's offending me to hear your reaction to it. It must be...sneering, or something. Fire the flesh slug.
A plagiarized rephrasing: All of this drama in response to my simple comment about you trying to heckle me? Seriously, I think you're reading way too much into it. Condescension and arrogance? What is that all about? I'm guessing you don't take criticism too well.
Since my own impressions are my own, and yours are yours, what do you hope to accomplish? Are you being protective? Are you feeling threatened on even a small scale? You seem to be looking for trouble to credit me with. Just what is it that will satisfy you? What keeps you coming back for more?
-Benny Fife
