DuskHour on 2/11/2004 at 21:23

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The idea of Garret in a romance may seem unattractive to many, but I don't think it would follow the usual lovey-dovey cuddle-muffin soap opera crap archetype we're used to. Think on a few things:

Garret's spent most of his life alone. He lives alone and he works alone. He grew up without anyone - if he ever knew his parents he doesn't speak of them - and the Keeper Library would hardly be a nurturing place for a child. It's no surprise he struck out on his own. The only 'friends' he has now are business connections that he likely keeps at arm's length, maybe with the exception of Artemus, but I doubt they go out for beers with the guys. What has all this isolation led to for Garret? It's made him into a street-smart, self-reliant master thief, but the downside has probably been a lack of emotional maturation.

What would this mean for romance in Garret's life? Well, in terms of just getting off, my bet would be he pays infrequent visits to some barwench or other harlot (as briefly indicated in the Cragscleft Prison mission in TDP: one of the expert objectives, saving Baffo the Boxer, references the gratitude of his strumpet sister as Garret's reason for rescuing him). The girl is likely very smitten with him (who wouldn't be?) but Garret probably doesn't stay in the morning, or give a damn about her on any other day of the week.

Now, if Garret were really to fall in love with someone, chances are he'd never admit it, even to himself. We're all familiar with that immature kind of relationship where the two parties are fighting all the time, entirely unaware of the feelings or sexual tension between them. That's most likely what it would look like, and I don't see it as a coincidence that Garret's relationship with Viktoria follows that pattern. They're almost entire polar opposites, and opposites attract: Garret is patient and cautious, Viktoria is headstrong and aggressive; Garret serves only himself, Viktoria lives for her cause; essentially, Garret is covert, while Viktoria is overt.

Since I realize nearly all of the above is shameless speculation, here's the primary source evidence that tipped me off to the fact that TLG might be wanting to tell us something:

- TDP: The Sword cutscene. First mention of Viktoria, close-up of her face, cue mood-setting piano score. Direct, yes, but not invalid.
- TMA: One of the Mask misisons cutscene, I forget which exactly. Garret's opening line is "Now that I have such a close working relationship with Gervesias' machines..." Yet, the instant he says the words "close working relationship" the image presented is one of Garret and Viktoria's silhouettes reflected in a pool, and they are standing startlingly close for what should be sworn enemies. It's a classic trick with film, and I can't see it not having been deliberate.
- TMA: Sabotage at Soulforge cutscene. Just listen to Garret's voice! When Artemus tells him Viktoria's begun an assault on the cathedral, Garret responds with entirely uncharacteristic alarm. The way he yells her name when he arrives and just before she sacrifices herself. And what's his first thought afterwards? Karras! There's such a hateful, vengeful look on his face and sound in his voice when he says it. Even if TLG didn't mean for us to assume there were feelings there, Garret's voice actor made a clear and deliberate choice with this cutscene.

So, that turned out longer than I expected, but I don't think we can discount the relationship here just because it doesn't fit standard relationship archetypes in movies and games. Garret's hardly a standard fictional character, why should his affairs follow a common pattern?

eastgate2 on 2/11/2004 at 23:05

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Yes Duskhour, since it is rumoured to be Hollywood is making the movie of Thief, I hope the screenwriters on that project will understand the true character of Garrett as you did.

Interesting and astute observations u made on Garrett, how true! :thumb:

DuskHour on 3/11/2004 at 00:00

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Thank you for the kind words, although as Zylon pointed out most of my post did make observations that were obvious, and that probably have been made before, while the rest was just speculation. I haven't heard anything about a Thief movie, but if there is one in the works, that honestly worries me more than anything else. Thief 1 and 2 were the TGS masterpieces - Thief:DS followed all the steps but there was something missing, like a paint-by-number Mona Lisa. Thus, I equate Hollywood's chances of nailing a Thief movie just right to be infitesimal, sadly. Still, here's hoping.

Sorry if I understood the question in the thread to be this:



The answer is interpretive, anyway, since there's no indisputable evidence one way or the other. Permit be to be so bold as to submit that may have been LGS's intent, and in doing so answer Zylon's question. It would be a clever gambit to use this maybe-so maybe-no romance to round Garret into a more 3-dimensional character for those who would appreciate that, while at the same time not outright 'ruining' him for fans of Garret as a stoic, stone-hearted, all-business badass by permitting them to retain an image of him as such.

Personally, I was always wondering about what Garret was like more as a person, behind the thick mask he wore around everyone, and that's what made subtle revelations like "close working relationship" all the more thrilling. But that's just me.

Bubble-headed_Taffer on 3/11/2004 at 00:34

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I detect there's definitely something between Garret and Victoria.

He was more than a little suspicious when he saw her again in TMA, but perhaps working in somewhat close contact with her may have brought on some casual flirting, and a sort of friendship (thus his concern when he hears that she's in danger in the mechanist temple)

I saw some subliminal hints. More blatant was the line "I've developed a close working relationship" I almost expected the next part to be "...with Viktoria" It was almost satire for this to accompany a picture of Garret and Viktoria standing rather close, reflected in a pool of water when it actually went on to say, "...with Gervasius's security systems"
It seems as though the makers of the game intended to hint on this...I'm almost certain.

ten on 3/11/2004 at 04:58

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I don't know about in the Thief-verse, but in classical mythology, wood nymphs were *extremely* sexual in nature. (Remember satyrs, those little men, goat from the waist down, always chasing girls? The girls were nymphs, and contrary to what Disney would have you believe, they very often got caught. They very often got caught in large piles while doing fairly lewd acts with each other and/or more satyrs. "On film" even, or rather, "on vase and fresco and mural and figurine and....")

(one fairly (http://www.artnet.com/magazine/features/hoving/hoving4-7-11.asp) acrobatic but not very explicit example from pompeii.)

I love history. :)

It's obvious that Viki isn't, uh, quite like that. But... she seems to be a fairly good shapeshifter, so why did she choose an attractive form? Wouldn't it be easier to choose a leathery, wrinkly form, something closer to her other tree-like state? Why not just stay in tree-state and talk to Garrett that way?

I think it's because she knows what any gendered being knows -- it's easier to get other creatures to give you things if they find you attractive. Viki would want to make Garrett feel "love" (or something like it) for her as much as possible in order to ensure his loyalty. As for whether she feels anything for him in return... well. He isn't exactly the right species, is he? And Garrett doesn't have the ability (a pretty common one in the animal and plant kingdoms) to mimic other species' mating signals or pheromones.

If Garrett didn't actually fall for her trap, I think he skirted the edges very closely. Garrett's concern for her was quite unusual because he doesn't tend to "feel" much for his allies, even long term ones. Did Garrett vow revenge when Basso was captured? Did he charge in, guns -- er, bow -- blazing? Nope, he mounted a cool, calm rescue mission well after the actual capture, and it took the, ah, favors of Basso's sister to get him even to do that.

I'm going to camp on the "Yes love, but for sinister motivation" side. :)