Keeper Jonas on 13/11/2004 at 07:52
my answer replies to the first post in this thread and that is that Yes, there was something between Garrett and Viktoria and had the glyphs ordained otherwise, the game might have ended differently.
What was that thing between Garrett and Viktoria? It was different in TDP and TMA. My answers are based on my knowledge of the game and interpretations of the cutscenes. If you don't agree with me and many won't, that's fine, but my mind is not likely to change.
First off the nature of the first cutsecne in TDP where Viktoria is mentioned leads me to suspect that Viktoria's charm, or magick, stirred something in Garrett's heart of stone. Specifically, the music and Garrett's tone, remember Stephen Russell is a kick ass actor and the story is well written, I think his tone was deliberate, just subtle.
Remember also that Viktoria later lured Garrett to talk to Constantine. The game never makes clear where that meeting took place when Garrett took Constantine's offer, was it at Constantine's house? The temptation is to say that no, it was a bar of some kind, but what about all the stuff that clearly belong to Constantine on the fire place and the rug that matched the carpet we see while playing Constantine's house?
If that meeting took place at Constantine's house, than Viktoria must have put Garrett under some kinda influence. I think this was purposefully left unclear.
Okay, what about when she tears out his eye?
I can only refer you all to the look on her face when she growls with hunger while looking at Garrett. For the Woodsie, she was ready to let Constantine kill him. Viktoria's interests were always only the Woodsie's interests. Might we say she lusted after him in TDP?
They aren't so different. The are both almost feral in how dangerous they are, they just fight for different reasons.
On to TMA. Garrett was as much a Mechanist target as Viktoria was, maybe this was a common ground? It was in the Woodsie's interests to recruit him for purely practical reasons, but watch the cutscenes. She is patient with his anger and rudeness, and as she herself says, she has faith in him...WHY? why would she have faith in Garrett under those circumstances? He's Garrett, not a hero. Love is irrational. Look at the cutscenes visually, not just aurally. In one scene, I can't remember exactly which during TMA, it shows the two of them standing near each other in the woods, reminded me of Basso and his girl from the first cutscene of the game.
On to Deadly shadows. Viktoria is supposedly dead. Garrett pisses the pagans off, what do they do? Offer him a change for good making cause of the memory of how Viktoria liked him, at least that is what Diane said, the two pagans who left the note might shed doubt on this since the pagans might have tried to do away with Garrett after the danger was past. Or Diane might have killed those two for their words. It TMA, Diane and Larkspur were Viktoria's seconds, maybe Viktoria told Diane something?
It is likely that the story has been written to keep us guessing thus the answer to the question might be, "Well, you tell us, wsa there, or was there not something between Garrett and Viktoria?" I opt for the latter, but then I am a hopeless romantic.
Blood Dragon on 13/11/2004 at 08:49
I think the relationship between Garrett and Victoria in TMA is just ally.
In my opinion, they care about each other is not about love, but about concerning the safety and interests of them.
The cutscene did show the two of them facing each other talking, but that is just a common conversation between friends. I think Garrett was reporting to Victoria about his discoveries in his missions. We all talk to our friends face to face, right?
Last thing, I think Garrett would focus on money rather than love. For a thief like him, it would be quite dangerous to have close relationship with a woman. Otherwise others may kidnap her and force Garrett to surrender. This keeps in Garrett's mind for maybe a long time and soon he forgets about love affairs.
Keeper Jonas on 13/11/2004 at 21:58
At the least he is not totally unaffected by lust, which is related to greed.
If you play the TDP mission "Escape from Cragscleft Prison" or whatever the hell the correct wording is, you will see that Garrett's stated motivation for getting Basso out is because he had his eye on Basso's sister. Love? I think not, lust okay, there is at least the memory of other things in Garrett's life besides lust for gelt.
As to the debatable nature of my cutscene evidence, duh it is debatable. I choose to see it that way, a lot of people aren't going to agree with me.
One thing I forgot to mention in my last post was the genuine concern in Garrett's voice when Viktoria got herself killed. Was it in his interests to call her name at the top of his lungs? He should have been quiet and hid. Viktoria's death made him angry, at Karras. He didn't want her to die, that is different from him not caring and only regarding her as an ally. If that were true I think Garrett might have been more backstabbing and sloppy in fight for her cause than he was.
It is true that they were trying to save the world, but there are so many little tid bits...
One time in TMA Garrett advises Viktoria to "don't wait up,"
Why would she be waiting up for him anyway.
Okay, :D I'm reading way too much into some of these things, but I think that is why they were written into the story, so people can read it however they want to.
Vogelfrei on 13/11/2004 at 22:49
I'm totally with you, Keeper Jonas. It's just detail, but it's
there.
Besides:
Quote Posted by Blood Dragon
Last thing, I think Garrett would focus on money rather than love. For a thief like him, it would be quite dangerous to have close relationship with a woman. Otherwise others may kidnap her and force Garrett to surrender. This keeps in Garrett's mind for maybe a long time and soon he forgets about love affairs.
That might be right for a "normal" woman. But I can not imagine Viktoria being captured by anyone. Even if they make it through a forest (or worse) full of pagans and critters and agressive trees (or worse), if they happen to defeat Viktoria herself, get her alive and survive themselves, she still has this very effective self-destruction-trick.
"Normal" women, however, are not interesting to him in the way Viktoria was. Cragscleft shows that he sometimes likes to be with them, but he usually refuses to have any deeper feelings. It does not happen to him anyway, because he is so much different from them that neither him nor the women seek for a real relationship.
He is a very special
little man, not the typical kind of human. In fact, I imagine him as a highly eccentric man who has his useful contacts and sometimes feels like having a meat with ol' Basso or something but normally stays on the roofs, totally on his own, looking down to the whole city.
Viktoria is the only woman in town (or, well, in the area), maybe the only person, who is similar to him. I think, that makes a lot of the fascination between them, that they found somebody who is alike.
They did not remark that in the first part, though, where they were busy either surviving or plotting an evil plan to destroy humanity.
EDIT:Oh, and the transcript is wrong. There IS a 'that'. You can hear it quite clearly. (
http://www.mitglied.lycos.de/zkhar/mus/that.wav) Proof (about 200 KB... seems tripod does not like hotlinking, so right click - save as...).
metal dawn on 13/11/2004 at 23:23
Cragscleft?! I don't know how that fits into this.
Vogelfrei on 13/11/2004 at 23:31
On Expert you have to free Basso from Cragscleft because he has a sister Garrett is interested in. (Remember carrying that body through the whole bloody mines? All that for a girl the player never gets to know. :sweat: [oh wait, what is with "Damsel in Distress"?])
Sylph_14 on 14/11/2004 at 00:54
"You've had your eye on Basso the Boxman's sister for a while now. If you break him out of Cragscleft, she'll probably be VERY grateful."
Thats the exact wording. Not much room for any other interpretation, ne? ;)
metal dawn on 14/11/2004 at 02:15
Yeah. Odd the game never mentions her again. All that sh*t for nothing. Well, actually, I think Garrett saves Basso partly because their friends, but more for his benefit because Basso will owe a favor or two. But let's not stray from the topic.
ten on 14/11/2004 at 02:53
Quote:
Last thing, I think Garrett would focus on money rather than love. For a thief like him, it would be quite dangerous to have close relationship with a woman. Otherwise others may kidnap her and force Garrett to surrender. This keeps in Garrett's mind for maybe a long time and soon he forgets about love affairs.
I'll second Vogelfrei. Perhaps Viktoria's differences are a *principal* reason for Garrett's (potential) involvement with her. Remember: Garrett makes his living taking other people's precious, beloved things. That would have to make him very paranoid about losing his own beloved things. Viki's the only female-like-being who, if she survives, will never really be a liability for him. (There are some male-like-beings too, but maybe that gets off the topic a little...)
About only "being with women" occaisonally, though... what *does* Garrett spend his money on between missions and/or games? It was always my impression that, though equipment still took a big chunk of his profits, his rent couldn't possibly be that high. I was thinking his major expenditures were probably along the lines of bribes, wine, and women, maybe in that order. I mean, G doesn't seem likely to start an orphange for the kids of the guards he's led into deep water, does he?
metal dawn on 17/11/2004 at 00:01
Thief would never have been as great w/o the kickass voices of Terri Brosius and Stephen Russell. In my honest opinion.
