Hamadriyad on 1/9/2009 at 13:00
Your post is too long eh? :cheeky:
But here we go:
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But going on what I remember, the crux of the prophecy was this: The "dark age" will be brought around by the brethren and betrayer. That's a very ambiguous qualifier. I'd be impressed if the prophecy said "The dark age will be brought by a betrayer, by the use of forbidden glyphs to extend life and change form." The prophecy would be even more prophetic if it said "Gamal is the bad guy".
Isn't that too easy? Where is meanings, thinking about the prophecy? Caduca wasn't just a interpreter. She was helping Keepers to understand them. Who said prophets see everything word to word?
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How about the "One true keeper?" Can that not be used to describe anyone who came out of the mess as a heroic figure? The prophecies came true based on Caduca's interpretations. How do we know she didn't get some of it wrong? Sure, the key tattoo appeared on Garrett's hand, so I guess that "verifies" the prophecy. But isn't that just too easy? Why a key tattoo? Is that like Superman's S?
So far, we didn't see that she was wrong. And no, not easy. There was a long way until the key mark. Maybe it looks like Superman's S but why do I care this similarity? I think key mark is a price of his freedom.
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Who wrote these prophecies? The Precursors? The early Keepers? What made them prophetic?
I wondered that too and I started a thread, take a look If you want.
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http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128482)
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Well who preordained it? Why? If it's preordained, then what was the point to begin with? Where's the tension in the story? If Garrett was *meant* to succeed, then the story teller wasted my time. The writer tried to trick us all into believing Garrett is special because the cosmos demanded it to be so. But if Garrett was "selected" to do these things before he was ever born, then who cares? He didn't do any of it of his own grit, determination, or decision making.
Who knows who preordained it and why? Is that important in our topic?
Tension in the story is we don't know the prophicies, we learn them later. Because we are playing as Garrett. Did you enjoy the games?(at least in first two games?)There were prophicies and everything happened as it was written. And now there is no prophicies, nobody knows what will happen. But there is fate, still.(I think theme of the game is fate and balance, at least so far.) Garrett will do somethings, but nobody will tell him what he is suppose to do.
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Why does holy water work on one hand, but then why do Hammerite corpses become Haunts? Did their God forsake them? Or are they all fools? But with the notion that prophecies are true with out a shadow of a doubt, all of that is ruined. The Builder can't be real, otherwise he'd grant his prophecies to his most devoted children. The Trickster can't be anything special, because the prophecies actively thwarted him. Garrett's choices (and morality) are meaningless, because it was predetermined.
Hammer haunts appear when their graves have been disturbed. Gods don't have to garnt prophicies and don't have to be undefeateable (at least in Thief universe.) The game tell us that they are gods and we don't have a little clue to think opposite. (I didn't understand why you involved gods and haunts anyway.)
Prophicies can't know Garrett's every act and decision. Just know what will happen in the end because of these acts. And unknown is always there as jtr7 said.
Jarvis on 1/9/2009 at 15:31
I include those things because of the implications of "prophecy" and "fate". To have those concepts in a story, a few root assumptions have to be made. No amount of discussion will resolve this issue though, as these very problems are still debated and discussed in humanity after thousands of years. But that's all right.
Like I said, technically you already have this one in the bag, because the writer's made their intentions pretty clear. My whole argument is just an attempt to raise a little awareness of some pretty cheap storytelling devices used to inject false drama in Thief. Even Thief 2 did some towards the end.
So to avoid going around in circles I only have one point to make here. You asked me if i enjoyed the first to games before I knew what the prophecies were, even though everything happened "as it was written".
All we hear in TDP are Keepers making claims of prophecy, like Artemus saying "All is as it was written." Like I said, we now know just how fallible the Keepers were. Artemus, along with all the Keepers, could easily be wrong about that.
In TMA we actually hear a little straight from Caduca's mouth. But there again, you're making the assumptions that her interpretations are perfect. Or maybe it is Gamal who is getting it wrong (or intentionally altering it? Neat thought eh?) But even if they are, those interpretations are very vague and ambiguous as all oracle predictions are. If taken literally, with out knowledge of TMA's story, it's essentially saying "a lot of robots and metal building are going to be made, and there will be a lot of rust". Of course when we learn of rust gas and the plan to wipe out organic life, we attribute it to that "prophecy" after the the fact. But the prophecy didn't actually say that.
That's sort of like me making a prophecy "The earth will be bathed in fire, and it will herald the great winter." What does that statement mean to you? Nuclear war? Climate change? A Meteor hit? Or perhaps the Sun going super nova? One of these things will happen someday, and when any of them do, you can call me a prophet.
But that's all right. The only way I can stand prophecy is when it's like that. When it's just as likely to be false as it is to be true. It allows me to ponder and wonder, and make my own decisions as to what I believe. So yes, for those reasons I enjoyed the story of TDP and TMA.
Meisterdieb on 1/9/2009 at 16:05
On the other hand, just take a look at how many of our superstitions are real in Garrett's world.
Do we really know that the Hand of Glory doesn't work at all, and that leaving some coins at that grave won't actually help one's luck...
Jarvis on 1/9/2009 at 17:11
I'm surprised I hadn't thought of that sooner. Everything else in Thief appears to be pretty well concrete and plainly laid out at this point. Why not? Well put.
Garrett's Shadow on 2/9/2009 at 02:57
Quote Posted by R Soul
The hand would have been a great tool for practical jokes. When Garrett shook hands with Constantine, imagine if he'd just had the lucky hand sticking out of his sleeve. He could have let go and shouted "Aargh my hand's come off". The Trickster would have really appreciated that.
Hah hah. and then Constantine would just say:
"No problem, I'll be taking an eye too!" :ebil:
Hamadriyad on 2/9/2009 at 19:14
False drama? I don't think so. I like all three games' story and I don't think TDS has a cheap story telling. (But maybe I am wrong, maybe I can't see the story as you can.)
Personally I believe in fate, maybe because of this I like so much the story and I can't see somethings.
But dear Jarvis, I guess this argument is going to nowhere. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, we can't change our minds and in fact, that is not the purpose. You said I've already won but this is not a contest man, there is no winner here. We just share our opinions and we respect each other.(respect is too important for me, some people -unfortunately-lack of respect.) And I have to say, I enjoyed your posts. You forced me to think. (but I don't know I forced you or not. :) )
I hope Thief IV's story pleases you, pleases us.
Builder bless thee. :angel:
Jarvis on 4/9/2009 at 01:11
Quote Posted by Hamadriyad
You forced me to think.
That's what its all about. As I said, I had to rethink myself several times. Enjoyable talk. Of course I'm back at work so no lengthy posts from me tonight.
Hamadriyad on 4/9/2009 at 11:57
Agreed. Man, I got used to your long posts, that's too short. :cheeky: But you have to work of course.
Nice to meet you Jarvis, I mean it. Take care. :thumb:
