Tommyknocker on 21/5/2009 at 09:36
I'm playing through Thief 3 at the moment, and it's sometimes painful how ponderous Garrets movement feels. You'd think that being a master thief he'd be adept at racing across the rooftops, scaling walls and leaping across gaps. I've seen youtube videos of amatuer parkour practitioners doing far more impressive things. It's the same in the other Thief's, but a little more forgivable as there weren't really any games out then where you could move fluently. But this is the age of Prince of Persia, Assassins Creed and Mirrors Edge, I don't think having a master thief being any more agile that myself would cut it.
Obviously acrobatic movements are a bit more limited in a first person game, though despite the overall rubbishness, mirrors edge pulled it off quite well. Here's a video, though I don't think it should be this fast or arcadey.
(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N1TJP1cxmo)
A few things I think could work:
Sprint- Seriously, garrett is pretty slow, and only cutting corners can you outrun a fat guard in heavy armour. I think when running away you should be able to sprint for a limited time.
Running up a wall- If Garrett sprints at a wall, he should be able to run up it a few steps before jumping up and grabbing a higher ledge. If he sprints along side a wall and moves into it, he should run along it a few steps and then be able to jump, going further and higher. Not to be overdone, but again I've seen this done in many amateur parkour videos quite effectively.
Jumping from ledge to ledge- When you hold jump to grab onto a ledge, garret should jump/pull up in whatever direction you're looking when you let go. Until then he just holds on- potential sneaky benefit too.
Rolling- Pressing crouch in mid-air should put Garret into a roll when he lands, not only mitigating damage but being a lot quieter.
hikikomori-san on 21/5/2009 at 10:57
What you're describing is very similar to what I said (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1859648#post1859648) here in the AI thread, but really, it is very easy to go overboard with such movement enhancements and ruin the game. Sprint when needed? Yes. Ability to jump and grab a high ledge? Yes. Shimmy across ledges and horizontal poles? Yes. Horizontal or vertical wall run? In Thief? Please no. More agility, but in stealth mode, since it should be only a means to allow Garrett more versatility in tackling the AI and the environment. Don't turn Garrett into a gymnast.
jay pettitt on 21/5/2009 at 11:12
...or you could just play Mirror's Edge, Assassins Creed and Prince of Persia.
I kind of like that Garrett is as utterly incapable of wall-running as I am, and instead relies on tools, like rope arrows (hint), to reach inaccessible places. I dunno, I think there is a danger of making Garrett ridiculous if you turn him into the worlds greatest thief and parkour champion. A character can be too awesome. Running and jumping was quite possible in Dark Engine thief, complete with clinging on to ledges - one level (lost city?) got a lot of people stumped because a jump across a fiery chasm was just possible in one direction but not on the return journey. Apparently we were supposed to have extended a bridge or something. I'm sure there is some scope for small improvements.
And I quite like your landing idea. Maybe not an entire commando roll if I had my way - but being able to land a little more softly by crouching on impact might be kinda cool.
Bakerman on 21/5/2009 at 13:32
I think Thiefs 1 and 2 felt better than DS, for me, ironically because the movement you experiences didn't come from the character animations. The headbob was silky-smooth and leaning around corners was just perfectly implemented. In TDS, your eyes moved jarringly as Garrett transitioned between animations, and the leaning was awful.
I tend to agree with the conservatives here. Grabbing ledges is okay (as long as we don't go extra-cranial just so we can see how aw-sum Garrett looks :nono:), but I'd say that wall-running and other parkour-ish moves are probably overkill.
I read somewhere that Garrett's not a ninja, and I believe it :P. His strength is moving quietly and staying unseen, not moving fast enough to bypass or escape things.
Tommyknocker on 21/5/2009 at 15:40
Yeh okay, maybe not the wall running horizontally, but I still think a couple steps up a wall then jumping would be a nice little inclusion. With all the evading guards Garrett has to do, I just feel it would be a more realistic to give him slightly more agility than the average 21st Century westerner.
Tail on 21/5/2009 at 16:58
You don't want Garrett to be too fast, or you lose the adrenaline when you're being chased. It rarely deals out ultimate punishment, but as the guards are hot on your heels and your waking everybody up as you crash down tiled corridors and you're thinking "will you STOP chasing meee", the game lightly mocks you back with "this is why you don't get caught, stupid".
Running UP the wall for a few steps is a good addition. Or maybe it could act like a double jump: once at the wall, then again for the extra height upwards. Two reasons for this: you'd be able to pull the move off silently as you don't need to run. And secondly, there's a chance of you mis-timing the second jump and just landing on the floor, alerting nearby guards. Difference being, the noise created becomes the player's fault, not because they have to run to perform the move.
MrMunkeepants on 21/5/2009 at 21:42
the problem with making Garrett more acrobatic (by using Parkour) is being able to see what you're doing - the devs would be hard pressed to implement it in first-person, and forcing the player into third-person would ruin the immersion.
I've seen some excellent ledge-crawling in FMS, mostly done (I believe) by putting an invisible ladder horizontally along the ledge. invisible ladders have also been used to make drain pipes and vines climbable... besides, if you count mantling and leaning, Garrett is already more agile than most shooter characters!
one thing about Assassin's Creed that bothered me was that the guards could do all the moves I could (some other games do this too) - isn't the point of having an acrobatic character that s/he can do things that regular people (especially armored guards) can't?
R Soul on 21/5/2009 at 21:42
I think it's best to keep things simple. Walk, run, jump, climb, drop, mantle, don't get caught.
Tommyknocker on 21/5/2009 at 21:51
Quote Posted by MrMunkeepants
the problem with making Garrett more acrobatic (by using Parkour) is being able to see what you're doing - the devs would be hard pressed to implement it in first-person, and forcing the player into third-person would ruin the immersion.
Have you watched the video? It's done quite well there.
MrMunkeepants on 21/5/2009 at 22:07
Mirror's Edge? I just did, and it does seem to be done quite well. I was thinking of PoP and AC, and how fast-moving jumps would be hard to do. I suppose it could be done the way I described earlier, with invisible ladders and such
