heywood on 30/6/2015 at 12:30
Quote Posted by Pyrian
Actually, I know you think that, and actually, I already refuted it, and actually, you haven't countered that refutation. Actually. ;) Indeed you didn't address any of the counterpoints at all.
If a law contradicts itself, the Supreme Court has not only the ability but indeed the responsibility to resolve the issue, and to do so in a way that preserves the law as much as possible.
OK, I will try to point out where you are wrong.
1. The law does not contradict itself. Section 1401 [26 U.S. Code §36B] authorizes premium assistance to taxpayers enrolled through an Exchange established by a State under 1311 [42 U.S. Code §18031]. Section 1311 is the section that contains the requirements for State established exchanges. For the purposes of Section 1311, an exchange is clearly defined as "An Exchange shall be a governmental agency or nonprofit entity that is
established by a State." The supposed contradictions you mention (e.g. distributing information, outreach programs) are contained within this very same section and specifically apply to State exchanges, therefore they are not in contradiction with Section 1401. Your claim that the law requires informing people of benefits they're not getting is simply wrong. Even the majority opinion doesn't make that claim. Here is a link to the actual text:
(
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/18031) https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/18031
(
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/36B) https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/36B
2. One of the first canons of statutory interpretation is plain meaning. In the case of plainly written law, the Court's duty is to enforce it as is. The Court has a duty to interpret ambiguity but is not supposed to change the meaning of plainly written law.
In this case, the Court effectively extended the provisions of Sections 1401 and 1311 to apply to federally established exchanges, even though there is plain and clear language in both sections that specifically and unambiguously limits their application to exchanges established by a State, not "the state", not "in a State", not "for a State", not "on behalf of a state". I don't see how any impartial English-speaking person could read those sections and conclude they were meant to apply to federal exchanges.
EDIT: It's pretty clear to me anyway that the writers of the ACA thought they were requiring the States to create exchanges and expand Medicare. The Supreme Court's decision in National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius made it impossible for the federal government to force or coerce the States to participate. The correct remedy would be legislation which makes federally run exchanges a full equivalent. But that will never happen in the current Republican-led Congress. Even though I generally support the ACA, I can't see how this decision is legally correct. It seems to me that the Court usurped the legislative powers of the Congress to "save" a law that the Congress would not otherwise have saved.
Vae on 30/6/2015 at 12:35
Quote Posted by gkkiller
Maybe I just don't understand politics or legal jargon, but I fail to see how this could be anything but a step forward.
I agree...homosexuals have the right to be as miserable and deluded as everyone else.
State sanctioned self-determination, only reveals the fundamental immorality of the insidious State construct.
It's only a "step forward" towards the inevitable divide, under the guise of illusionary unity.
faetal on 30/6/2015 at 13:24
I'll say the same as I've said to the other marriage cynics:
"I love being married - so does my wife. The original purpose of marriage isn't imposed on anyone. The institution's been co-opted by people who want to use it as a punctuation event for starting a life together. The government's role is little more than recording it."
Sure if you don't like marriage, there are a bunch of things you can find wrong with it, but the same goes for anything which people like/dislike by degrees.
heywood on 30/6/2015 at 14:13
Quote Posted by icemann
In Australia we've had universal healthcare since 1975 and it's never caused any major problems for the economy or whatever.
Inline Image:
http://www.ncoa.gov.au/report/appendix-vol-1/images/chart9-3-3.pngFrom here: (
http://www.ncoa.gov.au/report/appendix-vol-1/9-3-pathway-to-reforming-health-care.html) http://www.ncoa.gov.au/report/appendix-vol-1/9-3-pathway-to-reforming-health-care.html
It hasn't been a major economic problem, nevertheless Australia has been steadily working to move people off of Medicare onto private insurance to help contain Medicare cost growth. Pretty soon a majority will have private insurance.
But as long as Australia can keep cost growth under control, it's all good.
I am amazed at the relatively low cost of health care services in Australia compared to my experiences in the US. Due to the way my international insurance works, I pay almost all of my health insurance costs out of my pocket and get reimbursed, so I see the full price charged by the provider. Doctor visits, basic services, tests, prescription medications are all much cheaper in Australia. For example, I had to visit a burns unit of a hospital a couple years ago to get wounds dressed and be checked out by a plastic surgeon. The bill was $300. In the US, the bill would probably have been 5x higher.
Quote Posted by faetal
The UK won't remain free for long either. The private health industry which has been looking to crack open the UK market for decades has finally got a foot hold with the 2011 Health & Social Care act. The vast majority of new contracts are going to private providers (many of which donated to the Conservative party; many of the latter have relevant investment interests set to grow with the dishing out of contracts etc...) and real terms funding is being gradually reduced, probably to do the same thing as with British Rail - make the service under-perform, offer full privatisation as the solution. After which, the UK can look forward to a profit-oriented healthcare system which bankrupts people or leaves them to die.
See above comments re: Australia. I think the UK may end up following the model of Australia or Germany. Neither is necessarily bad. Everything depends on containing cost growth. If health care remains relatively affordable, then many different approaches are workable. Conversely, if you start seeing health care costs accelerate as they have in the US over the last 3 decades, then all the options suck.
Tony_Tarantula on 30/6/2015 at 16:21
Quote Posted by heywood
2. One of the first canons of statutory interpretation is plain meaning. In the case of plainly written law, the Court's duty is to enforce it as is. The Court has a duty to interpret ambiguity but is not supposed to change the meaning of plainly written law.
In this case, the Court effectively extended the provisions of Sections 1401 and 1311 to apply to federally established exchanges, even though there is plain and clear language in both sections that specifically and unambiguously limits their application to exchanges established by a State, not "the state", not "in a State", not "for a State", not "on behalf of a state". I don't see how any impartial English-speaking person could read those sections and conclude they were meant to apply to federal exchanges.
EDIT: It's pretty clear to me anyway that the writers of the ACA thought they were requiring the States to create exchanges and expand Medicare. The Supreme Court's decision in National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius made it impossible for the federal government to force or coerce the States to participate. The correct remedy would be legislation which makes federally run exchanges a full equivalent. But that will never happen in the current Republican-led Congress. Even though I generally support the ACA, I can't see how this decision is legally correct. It seems to me that the Court usurped the legislative powers of the Congress to "save" a law that the Congress would not otherwise have saved.
Thanks Heywood. For everyone else that's entirely correct. The court doesn't have the power to amend or rewrite existing laws, they can only strike them down or uphold them as written.
Still Heywood you still seem to be under the misconception that Republicans hate the ACA. Nothing could be further from the truth: the bill was originally created by Republicans and they still fight aggressively to save the bill. Remember a few weeks ago when the Republicans(Not the Democrats, Republicans) were talking about how they'd introduce new bills to expand subsidies in the event the court struck down the original legislation?
They may talk a big game for their Southern voters but all their actions speak much louder than words.
Tony_Tarantula on 30/6/2015 at 16:26
Quote Posted by faetal
I'll say the same as I've said to the other marriage cynics:
"I love being married - so does my wife. The original purpose of marriage isn't imposed on anyone. The institution's been co-opted by people who want to use it as a punctuation event for starting a life together. The government's role is little more than recording it."
Sure if you don't like marriage, there are a bunch of things you can find wrong with it, but the same goes for anything which people like/dislike by degrees.
Outside of the strongly religious marriage is kind of a massive "whatever" in America. The Post Vietnam-era left is still heavily influenced by the "marriage is slavery" meme that was popular in the 60's, and a lot of those on the right are gravitating towards the MRA bullshit, whose followers believe that marriage is nothing more than a way for women to take 50% of your stuff and future earnings. Both view marriage as nothing more than a disposable commodity, and for both camps marriage is good for nothing more than social validation of your sexual activity.
Granted we're talking about outliers but the trend as a whole is that people want to get married less and less. Even HuffPo acknowledges it: (
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/helen-smith/8-reasons-men-dont-want-t_b_3467778.html)
Tony_Tarantula on 30/6/2015 at 18:44
Also, for anyone who keeps talking about how great the ACA is and how wonderful it's been for American Healthcare.
Go fuck yourselves. I'm looking for new insurance now as some of my old benefits expire soon, and I'm currently looking at a household income in the low 20's for the year since I'm starting school.
The prices are ridiculous( $400 USD+ monthly) for two healthy people in their 20's, for coverage benefits that are extremely shitty compared to what they were a few years ago. We're talking copays in excess of $1000 per visit with no vision or dental, and a relatively limited provider selection.
For the people who don't understand how someone could possibly be against the ACA, I've got three words for you.
Try it sometime
This ruling is going to go down in history alongside Wickard v. Filburn as one of the most crappy, most politically motivated rulings in American history.
Tony_Tarantula on 30/6/2015 at 19:18
Also hate to post again but there's some new news on it. I never would have guessed this would happen but ALABAMA of all states came to the most sensible position on the issue:
(
http://blog.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2015/05/alabama-senate-passes-bill-to-effectively-nullify-all-sides-on-marriage/#.VY_Oifjxagk.facebook)
Quote:
MONTGOMERY, Ala. (May 23, 2015) – This week, the Alabama state Senate passed a bill that would end the practice of licensing marriages in the state, effectively nullifying both major sides of the contentious national debate over government-sanctioned marriage.
Introduced by Sen. Greg Albritton (R-Bay Minette), Senate Bill 377 (SB377) would end state issued marriage licenses, while providing marriage contracts as an alternative. It passed through the Alabama state Senate by a 22-3 margin on May 19.
“When you invite the state into those matters of personal or religious import, it creates difficulties,” Sen. Albritton said about his bill in April. “Go back long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away. Early twentieth century, if you go back and look and try to find marriage licenses for your grandparents or great grandparents, you won’t find it. What you will find instead is where people have come in and recorded when a marriage has occurred.”
The bill would replace all references to marriages “licenses” in state law with “contracts.” The legislation would not invalidate any marriage licenses issued prior to the bill being passed.
heywood on 30/6/2015 at 19:52
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
Also, for anyone who keeps talking about how great the ACA is and how wonderful it's been for American Healthcare.
Go fuck yourselves. I'm looking for new insurance now as some of my old benefits expire soon, and I'm currently looking at a household income in the low 20's for the year since I'm starting school.
The prices are ridiculous( $400 USD+ monthly) for two healthy people in their 20's, for coverage benefits that are extremely shitty compared to what they were a few years ago. We're talking copays in excess of $1000 per visit with no vision or dental, and a relatively limited provider selection.
For the people who don't understand how someone could possibly be against the ACA, I've got three words for you.
Try it sometimeThis ruling is going to go down in history alongside Wickard v. Filburn as one of the most crappy, most politically motivated rulings in American history.
OK, but health care costs in the US have been rising faster than the larger economy for 30-35 years. If the ACA had never been enacted, you still would have seen higher premiums and fewer providers year after year, because that was the long term trend. The ACA does not fix the cost growth problem, but it didn't cause it either. Until we can get the cost growth problem under control, every health care system is going to suck.
Does replacing 'license' with 'contract' actually change anything though?
Queue on 30/6/2015 at 20:31
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
... Also I'm not a lawyer here ...
Why would anyone think you're a lawyer here? Are you a lawyer someplace else?
Quote Posted by Tony_Tarantula
Also hate to post again ...
Don't worry, we all hate to see you post again, too.