bedwine on 13/12/2008 at 07:43
Let me put it another way. What if I made a mission where to succeed you could not have any unconcious bodies discovered by enemies? Bodies would have to be hidden and it could be designed that in doing so would be harder than just simply ghosting through the area.
What if I made a mission where on expert mode one would have to knock out a particular guard in a well lit area without disturbing the others? On easy mode one would not have to knock out the guard. Ghosting would be required on easy and knocking out the guard would be the only knockout allowed on expert.
Would elite ghosters be put off by this?
Tannar on 13/12/2008 at 08:51
First let me just say that I like both of those ideas and personally I would find that kind of challenge very enjoyable. As for whether other serious ghosters would be put off by this I would say that it depends on a couple of things. If the player's goal is to ghost the mission and you set up circumstances that make it impossible to ghost (like ko'ing a guard in a well lit area surrounded by other guards with no way to achieve that objective and remain hidden) then I would think they would be put off by this. But not all missions are ghostable.
On the other hand, ghosting rules allow for "breaking" the ghost when doing so is required by mission objectives but usually that would be in a situation where the only thing that breaks the ghost is the actual completion of the objective. For example, if the objective is to knockout a particular guard then the ghost is not technically broken since that is a necessary action to complete the mission. But, if the mission is designed in such a way that it is impossible to knockout that guard without alerting other guards, then that does break the ghost and the mission is therefore not ghostable.
I like ghosting but I also like playing other styles so I am not put off by a mission that is not ghostable. I might be disappointed but if the mission is fun and challenging and the story engaging I will enjoy it just as much, even if it can't be ghosted.
I hope this answers your questions. Any other ghosters out there feel free to clarify anything I may have left out here.
pavlovscat on 13/12/2008 at 19:40
I am replaying 2006 missions for my reviews right now including missions 8 - 10 from the Haddur series: The Dream of Tyrus, Retribution & Guardmen of Haddur. Just to get a feeling for the series, I went back & replayed the first seven missions. I forgot just how creepy, scary these missions were. Turi is a master of atmosphere. These missions use plain stock textures, so they have a very TDP feeling to me. The architecture is basic, but the missions have good game play. Has anyone else played these recently?
MrMunkeepants on 13/12/2008 at 20:44
here are a couple of things that have been bothering me while playing FMs for quite some time now...
the lack of light switches! I believe every electric light should have a switch somewhere, whether it's in the room by the door, next to the light itself, or at a control panel at a guard station nearby. it has to be expensive keeping all those lights on all the time, right?
sinks and tubs filled with water! I don't know if it's supposed to give the feeling that someone just stepped away, but I find myself wondering how long the water has been sitting there getting cold... how it's going to drain, and who brought it up in the first place?
Nameless Voice on 13/12/2008 at 21:26
The first is for gameplay reasons: torches and gas lamps can be doused, and electric lights cannot. If every electric light had a light switch, then you could plunge the entire mission into pitch blackness and remove all challenge.
I've wondered about the baths and sinks myself, but... it's traditional!
SneakyJack on 13/12/2008 at 22:23
Quote Posted by bedwine
It is interesting how Thief FM's has developed into attracting distinct play styles. Personally I am not a big fan of ghosting but I understand why some hate playing any other way.
One of my favorites was "Durant" because of brilliant way the author allowed the use of a haunt as an ally to take out enemies. One could actually eliminate everyone in the first part of the mission without to even blackjack with use of a trap. It was just humorus fun. Evidently I am in the minority because Durant never got great scores by players. The fact that there are so few missions that are made this way is actually a good thing. If it were done often it would get old.
I am right there with you on all counts. I loved "Durant" and am not a big fan of ghosting, though I have previously ghosted a handful of FM's. Its far too hard for me though, as I love the satisfying "thud" that a blackjack victim makes ;)
As far as what you said about objectives - I love when a mission has ghosting as an "Optional" objective that simply says "ghosting failed" on the screen or ticks off a failed ghosting in objectives without causing me to fail a mission. Then again, I've always thought that ghosting shouldnt even be an option until you are on the hardest difficulty - it just makes sense that way.
Quote:
I am replaying 2006 missions for my reviews right now including missions 8 - 10 from the Haddur series: The Dream of Tyrus, Retribution & Guardmen of Haddur. Just to get a feeling for the series, I went back & replayed the first seven missions. I forgot just how creepy, scary these missions were. Turi is a master of atmosphere. These missions use plain stock textures, so they have a very TDP feeling to me. The architecture is basic, but the missions have good game play. Has anyone else played these recently?
I have not checked them out recently but now that you've mentioned them I've added them to my "to play" list - so thank you! :D
Quote:
here are a couple of things that have been bothering me while playing FMs for quite some time now...
the lack of light switches! I believe every electric light should have a switch somewhere, whether it's in the room by the door, next to the light itself, or at a control panel at a guard station nearby. it has to be expensive keeping all those lights on all the time, right?
sinks and tubs filled with water! I don't know if it's supposed to give the feeling that someone just stepped away, but I find myself wondering how long the water has been sitting there getting cold... how it's going to drain, and who brought it up in the first place?
You make some excellent points that I never really thought about :laff:
As far as the water - thats just something funny that I never really thought about. I guess the only thing I could think of is not having true indoor plumbing and having to bucket fill the tubs and things?
As far as the light switches - you are spot on.. One of the things I loved about replaying "
Heist Society" recently was the fact that every room had working light switches. Its a blast being able to create your own shadows without expending water arrows.
I understand the point Nameless Voice made as well - perhaps it could be done so that on easy all switches are usable, mid difficulty only some and expert few to none? I don't know dromed that well so I don't know how hard that would be to do.
unreal_taffer on 13/12/2008 at 23:48
Great thread! nice to see some screeshot too :D
exellent idea, it is interesting as hell talk abotu all the things about the Fms, i love how the fms giving me a fun moments in the night alone, i love the high resolution graphics like have ANIR 1,2&3, or insice the Calendras Legacy,too many etc.
But i love the investigations in all the Fms, it is having a fun momonts with my litttle taffer.
Another good thing is colecting the good music inside some Fms. I remeber some ones!
Sticky Fingers on 14/12/2008 at 05:57
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
If every electric light had a light switch, then you could plunge the entire mission into pitch blackness and remove all challenge.
Very much agree - switch off all light sources & it couldn't be Thief gameplay any more.
But I'm also a great believer in having as much realistic detail as possible balanced with, or even enhancing, gameplay.
In the area of lighting - snuffable candles, the provision of electric light switches - albeit in challenging locations - & frobbable gas lamps (after all, if you put them out with a water arrow, the gas is still coming out so where's the explosion? :D ).
A few examples of this balance of gameplay & some control of light that I can remember being achieved:
- missions in which Garrett could turn off some electric lights while the off-switch for others was beyond his reach,
- providing more than 1 light source in an area, at least 1 of which couldn't be controlled; such as in A Weekend Getaway where you could switch off an electric light to provide some extra shadow but still had the lit fireplaces & lightning flashes to deal with,
- there was a mission (can't remember the name) where, placed throughout the city, groups of 1, 2 or 3 of the nearest streetlights were run by those boxes with sliding controls on top, but with a guard near each of those boxes. The player had to find a way to either switch off those lights or get through / around that particular area another way.
There's probably more ways, just can't think of them at the moment.
MrMunkeepants on 14/12/2008 at 07:36
Mission X had the pickable light switches, which I thought was an excellent compromise. if you could time it right, you could run down the hall and pick the switch, then turn off the light right as the guard came by... or did it have the light switch key? either way, there was both tension and challenge, with a bit of respite as a reward for a your labors
pavlovscat on 14/12/2008 at 17:08
In Mission X, some of the switches were pickable, but others were not. There was a lightswitch key, but it did not exist on the hardest difficulty. The key was not near the start of the mission, so you had to do some exploring before you got it. You could also short out the electric lights with 2 water arrows. I thought this set up was very realistic.