General question about Thief "difficulty"

Chiles4 on 15/5/2007 at 21:23

On my second Thief mission...ever. I'm in the mines in Thief Gold. And I'm kinda perplexed about difficulty and the abilities of Garrett.

I don't know if my post below would really qualify as spoilers but I'll try to keep the details to a minimum.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
In Lord Bafford's Manor, I was not successful in blackjacking the guards who patrol on the upper level. Approaching them from behind in a crouch even when on the narrow hallway rugs was never successful. I was always found out and summarily whacked. It turned out, IIRC, I did not even get a key off their belts but luckily found it somewhere else.

My question is...are there some situations in Thief where you simply should not try to blackjack a guard? Are there certain surfaces where "guard-jumping" should be avoided at all cost (aside from the obvious metal grated floor)? Are there "super-guards" that should be avoided at all cost? I'm trying hard to determine when I should and shouldn't attempt it. I was really surprised by my inability to do anything with those Bafford guards as I was able to "take out" ones on the floor below just fine. What is it that was different between the two situations? I think the game was telling me that these guards were simply to be avoided but what was the reasoning behind my inability to sneak up on them when I could easily sneak up on others?

Where is SWAT 4's tazer when you need it! :ebil:

BrokenArts on 15/5/2007 at 21:27

Timing, and patience, watch the guards, and their patrol patterns. They will have the same patrol pattern, with patience, you will be able to get up right behind them, and black jack them. If they are noisy, on a grated area, or a tile floor, you will be too. Once they hear you on a tile or grated floor, "Your dead pal!" For the most part. Moss arrows come in handy. The more you play, you'll get better and learn how to handle those situations. Find places to hide in too. Sounds you are playing Thief gold? Dark Project?

Have fun! Ohhh to play thief again for the first time. :)

imperialreign on 15/5/2007 at 22:18

one skill definitely worth practicing in for use in T1/T2 is the ability to blackjack a guard while you're in mid-air (will even come up at the end of the level stats as "Knockouts while airborn") . . . <asides: I can't remember, does TDS keep track of these 'special' knockouts?>; there are many places (especially in T2) where you're on a rug, or something else quiet, and there's a lone or patrolling guard clanking his way down tiled floor, metal grating or something else just as much of a give away, but they're usually within distance that you can take a running leap, and whap 'em before you hit the ground. Until you get used to the timing, ready your blackjack before you leap, and let go of the attack button once your about to land on their back.

Actually, the two guards at the top of Bafford's Manor are great for practicing this, jumping across the tiled floor from one rug to the next . . . make sure you save before you start the practicing! :thumb:

Hewer on 15/5/2007 at 22:46

Yeah, I think I know the two guards you're talking about. Guards have different sensitivity settings (a Dromeder could tell you all about it), and those two guards are pretty sensitive. I had a hard time with them for quite a while.

It's all in your technique. With those guards you've got to either come running from a little ways away down the hall, or hide in a corner next to one of the half pillar-things along the hall. They'll hear you every time in the first option- even if you're running on the carpet. As for the second option, when you're hidden, you're standing on marble, so one step when they're reasonably close enough to blackjack, and they'll hear you too.

The trick is to learn to lean and smack them. As soon as he goes by, lean forward and blackjack him. It helps to have the blackjack already raised and ready.

And that's if you want to take one or both out. It sounds like you figured out how to walk almost exactly between them so you don't have to use your blackjack at all.
It's been a long time, but I'm pretty sure that's the situation.

I do envy you your first playthrough- man, those were good times. It was when I was really tense trying to figure out those two guards when a friend came by to see me. She walked up and saw that my apartment was dark and was about to leave when she heard someone say "What was that? I thought I heard something..." (or something to that effect- I was about to get caught once again) When she heard that she was a bit confused and pounded on my door. My computer was just inside the door, so I was literally sitting just on the other side of her pounding- about three feet away. The timing was perfect and I jumped out of my skin. Yup. Good times.

jtr7 on 15/5/2007 at 23:03

It should also be noted that a guard's alertness level may go up a notch because of something you've done elsewhere, before you ever saw the guard yourself. The sound propagation has some kinks that work for you and against you. Another thing that happens--to me, anyway--is an AI may become alerted because your actions triggered a sound, but the sound effect *.wav didn't play, to let you know it happened! It all adds to the tension.:thumb:

DJ Riff on 16/5/2007 at 13:56

First of all, you can avoid them by using a hidden entrance. Check the upper floor at the garden. Nice banners, aren't they?

Next, as Hewer said, learn to lean forward and blackjack (even from crouching). The thing is, that if you're in pitch-black, you can lean-&-blackjack a guard even if he is searching for you -- right into his face! So you can find a pitch-black shadow and lure them to you by making some noise.

Chiles4 on 16/5/2007 at 18:57

Quote:

Sounds you are playing Thief gold? Dark Project?

I just started Thief Gold - the downloaded version. Works just fine in XP.

Quote:

Moss arrows come in handy.

Yeah, they would have helped greatly on that tile floor but I'm pretty sure you don't get any for the first mission.

Imperialreign, regarding airborne knockouts, I would think that the guards would hear you as soon as you started to run. And if they couldn't hear you, would going airborne be of any benefit to your attack? Sounds quite cool though. Please tell me more of your technique if you don't mind.

Quote:

Guards have different sensitivity settings (a Dromeder could tell you all about it), and those two guards are pretty sensitive. I had a hard time with them for quite a while.

Yeah, I think the game made these guards more sensitive than usual in order to add to the challenge. If these two guards were pushovers, the ending part of the mission would have been too easy. Instead, it had me running and in stark fear for my life! And the mission took a lot longer.

Quote:

With those guards...hide in a corner next to one of the half pillar-things along the hall.

Yeah, I figured if you're gonna take them out, that has to be the place to hide.

Quote:

The trick is to learn to lean and smack them. As soon as he goes by, lean forward and blackjack him. It helps to have the blackjack already raised and ready.

What exactly do you mean by "lean forward"? I only know left(Q) and right(E). You mean inch forward a bit and strike the guard on the side of the head? Does a side-of-the-head strike even work? If so, I'll try it.

Quote:

It sounds like you figured out how to walk almost exactly between them so you don't have to use your blackjack at all.

Based on those guard's sensitivity, I think the devs at LG intended for you to sneak by them.

Quote:

Check the upper floor at the garden. Nice banners, aren't they?

Is the garden's upper floor where you see the statues and can look through a portal out over the pool? I was there but didn't find anything, not even banners. Then again, I'm playing at default brightness so I can barely my nose in front of my face and may have walked right by it.

I also missed a key place in the mines as I can barely see jack down there and didn't know to take holy water. So I mostly just run like a frightened little girl.

I guess what's good about not seeing/finding everything is that it greatly adds to the replayability. I know I'm missing a bunch of stuff on my first runthrough.

BTW, I was FINALLY able to take out a Hammerite in a room with a metal grating floor and "controls" in it. I did pretty much as you suggested, BrokenArts. I simply kept studying the situation until I found one approach that worked - without wasting a ton of various arrows that is. I'm glad I did because I was starting to think that the game was going to be too hard.

So far I'm really impressed with the AI's sensory abilities. And for a game that came out in '99!

Twist on 16/5/2007 at 23:11

Quote Posted by Chiles4

What exactly do you mean by "lean forward"? I only know left(Q) and right(E). You mean inch forward a bit and strike the guard on the side of the head?

No, he means lean forward. :thumb: Check your bindings. You can bind a key to lean forward.

DJ Riff on 17/5/2007 at 04:01

Alt+W by default, AFAIK
It's on the last line of the key bindings list.

I suggest you to bind it to some key without 'Alt' so that you can combine this action with moving and jumping (sometimes it helps to get through the window)

imperialreign on 17/5/2007 at 21:48

Quote:

Imperialreign, regarding airborne knockouts, I would think that the guards would hear you as soon as you started to run. And if they couldn't hear you, would going airborne be of any benefit to your attack? Sounds quite cool though. Please tell me more of your technique if you don't mind.

usually they'll hear you start to run, once you've become quite good at it, the amount of distance you actually need to run for a 'running leap' is really quite short, and if you've started from something fairly quiet (a rug, for example), usually it will only put them in a minimal alert status, instead of an active search (unless they've seen you before or are other wise pre-alerted). Sometimes, (as best I can tell) if you can leap quick enough, the sound files aren't even triggered, so the AI doesn't hear anything.

The best advice I can give to start getting the hang of it, in Bafford's where those two guards patrol at the top of the mansion with the tiled flooring; once you come out of either of the two doors that open into these halls (for practice, it's best to use the one from the library), duck to the side into the shadows ASAP. Turn around and line yourself up straight with the rug. Wait until a guard mills along, ready the blackjack (hold the 'attack'), and after he's started proceeding down the hall on the SECOND section of rug (not the one you're standing on), run towards him and jump just before you would be on the tile . . . let go of the 'attack' just as you're about to "land on his back" and knock him out.

With practice, you'll be able to judge your timing and distance a lot better, making the least amount of noise possible.